Fudd sighting: marshvegas

[dvajda]

I would be kicked out of your club with "6 round limit" within 30 minutes. What a hilarious rule. You can't "test" a 30 round magazine by loading 6 rounds into it, you have absolutely no idea if it even work with 30 now, since the spring may get quirky and cause failure to feeds at that point.

A lot of clubs have strange rules that need to be challenged. This year at my club I got in trouble and had to see "the board" when I was drawing from a holster (tactical military holster with belt, not concealed carry). So I went to their special meeting where they said that drawing from holster was not allowed... I asked where that was in the rules... Well it turns out it wasn't a "written" rule. So then I said that means I can do it. They said that means you can do it, but you have to do it slower than I do it. Because when you do it fast, it is "trick shooting" and trick shooting is not allowed. I asked where trick shooting was not allowed in the rules, and that also was not written down. At this point my bullshit meter was in "overheat" mode, so I basically didn't care if I was getting booted out, so I was somewhat lippy. Finally they said "well you can shoot from holster, but don't do it when other people are around", at which point I had to ask "so if I'm shooting from a holster and someone shows up, I'm supposed to stop? What if they are not close to me?"

This finally forced the board to take a vote on whether I would or would not be allowed to draw from holster. Luckily several board members had seen me do it and know its fast, but I also hit plates like a beast, and they let that be known that there is no safety issue with the speed. The vote took place and I won, so now I *know* I can draw and shoot from holster at the club. Unfortunately new members are told that they can't, so they always look at me like I'm some criminal when I do it. Heh.

 

[jasons]

It's true that different clubs have different "personalities," sometimes even multiple personalities within a single club, and that's OK in my opinion. I don't really want to be on the high-power range trying to shoot an X with someone next to me dumping mags into the berm, nor do I want to be dumping mags into the berm while tripping over someone trying to shoot an X. I like having different clubs, or at least different sections of clubs, for different styles of shooting - it exposes me to more people, knowledge, etc., which makes me a better overall shooter and keeps things interesting as well.

Generally the personality of a club is abundantly clear at the get-go. Complaining about them on the internet after you've toured, applied, been accepted, and been initiated seems a little masturbatory to me. It's kinda like joining a yoga studio and then writing them a bad yelp review because they don't have power lifting equipment. Caveat emptor - if you don't like a club don't join it.

 

[not new guy]

It's true that different clubs have different "personalities," sometimes even multiple personalities within a single club, and that's OK in my opinion. I don't really want to be on the high-power range trying to shoot an X with someone next to me dumping mags into the berm, nor do I want to be dumping mags into the berm while tripping over someone trying to shoot an X. I like having different clubs, or at least different sections of clubs, for different styles of shooting - it exposes me to more people, knowledge, etc., which makes me a better overall shooter and keeps things interesting as well.

Generally the personality of a club is abundantly clear at the get-go. Complaining about them on the internet after you've toured, applied, been accepted, and been initiated seems a little masturbatory to me. It's kinda like joining a yoga studio and then writing them a bad yelp review because they don't have power lifting equipment. Caveat emptor - if you don't like a club don't join it.

Just out the yoga studio already so we can get a proper NES boycott going.

 

[Racenet]

Boycott? Did someone say Boycott?

 

[Rancho]

what a shithead. did you ask where they make custom eye and ear protection to fit on that giant vagina he called a face?

I ****ing hate you!! I just spit coffee on my friggin' keyboard!!

Fudds will be fudds thankfully we don't have too many at Harvard. One thing we do have at Harvard is the variety of shooting areas for each and every discipline. That is why I really love our club and the fact that they really encourage being involved. Which is why I became a range nazi..

 

[josh2600]

That's great, Do you pick up all the shrapnel or do you leave it there for some ones dog get it paws all cut to hell on?

What the hell is someone's dog doing wandering around a firing range?

Doesn't really apply to me because I only shoot paper or steel, but it's not too big of a deal to pick up some shredded cans. I've picked up plenty of other people's.

If I could make one rule for my club that had to be strictly adhered to, it would be that if someone is nice enough to leave steel plates behind for everyone to use, anyone that thinks it's a blast to shoot it with the biggest rifle they can find, to put massive gaping holes in it, would be strung up and shot, post haste. That's about it.

 

[josh2600]

Beansie and Denism,

If I got your intentions wrong, then thats certainly my fault.

Now reading your followups, I think we are all on the same page. Its ALL fun.

And NO, there don't seem to be any single clubs that embrace both. Or, if they do, its different groups of people within the club doing each pursuit.

Im a member at Mass Rifle and Harvard.

Mass Rifle has a lot of excellent precision rifle shots. Its only 200 yards, so these guys tend to focus on open sighted service rifle types of games. Many are also members at Reading where they can shoot scoped out to 600 yards. There are a small group of practical shooters who have events monthly. But generally, the tone of the club is set by the rules, which are set by the fact that I95, a School, mall, auto dealer, and hotel are just beyond the backstops of our outdoor ranges. If a round gets out of Mass Rifle, it will come down somewhere where somebody will notice.

To that end, no holster draw is allowed at MRA unless its at an event. But even still, its convenient. Its got the best indoor range I've found in MA other than Smith and Wesson. They allow any rifle up to .50bmg as well as machine guns indoors.

For me, Harvard is all about practical shooting. I have the pick of 3 ranges to use my MG on. The re are enough outdoor pits so I can shoot all morning and never share with anyone. Holster draw, rapid fire, whatever you want. Harvard's 200/300 yard range is great. But again, its a different group of guys than those who use the MG ranges, or the pistol pits with the permanently installed steel targets.

At both clubs I'm friendly with both the practical and the precision groups. But they are very distinct groups. I can tell you that at Mass Rifle, they all play nice and there is mutual respect. Part of that is probably because of the mingling that happens at Sunday morning breakfast.

Harvard, I can't comment on because I don't really know the culture there yet. But I've not met an a55hole there yet.

I can contrast this with some blue collar snobs at my clubs in CT. At these clubs, if you don't drive a pickup truck you ain't 5h1t. The blue collar guys split from the white collar guys. Its really swell.

I do believe that its best to start kids out shooting precisely. But I also believe that its good to introduce practical shooting skills as a means to keep the interest going. Then I think they will eventually come back around to precision. Thats how it went for me.

Don

Oh, white collar guys aren't even allowed to join my club

 

[Coyote33]

Just out the yoga studio already so we can get a proper NES boycott going.

Will need some pictures first, if you know what I mean.

That's great, Do you pick up all the shrapnel or do you leave it there for some ones dog get it paws all cut to hell on?

I've never seen a dog at the range. Besides, I meant plastic milk jugs.

It's true that different clubs have different "personalities," sometimes even multiple personalities within a single club, and that's OK in my opinion. I don't really want to be on the high-power range trying to shoot an X with someone next to me dumping mags into the berm, nor do I want to be dumping mags into the berm while tripping over someone trying to shoot an X. I like having different clubs, or at least different sections of clubs, for different styles of shooting - it exposes me to more people, knowledge, etc., which makes me a better overall shooter and keeps things interesting as well.

Generally the personality of a club is abundantly clear at the get-go. Complaining about them on the internet after you've toured, applied, been accepted, and been initiated seems a little masturbatory to me. It's kinda like joining a yoga studio and then writing them a bad yelp review because they don't have power lifting equipment. Caveat emptor - if you don't like a club don't join it.

You leave out that people join a club near them. I don't want to drive all over the place to go shooting.

What the hell is someone's dog doing wandering around a firing range?

Doesn't really apply to me because I only shoot paper or steel, but it's not too big of a deal to pick up some shredded cans. I've picked up plenty of other people's. ...

I didn't say I do it. I said I wish my club allowed it. When I was a kid, it was bottles. Now, THAT was fun. And yes, THAT was in a pit. I was mostly there to pick up empty casings and dig bullets out of the sand (as I was a kid), and to check out the cool guns guys brought to the pits.

I am betting that the place that he is talking about is a sand pit and not a club range. So yes there would be dogs running that place.

No, see above.

 

[jasons]

You leave out that people join a club near them. I don't want to drive all over the place to go shooting.

OK, then join the fuddly local club and deal with their fuddly local rules. Or don't and don't. Seems like a simple choice.

 

[kalash]

I drive 40 minutes to my club because it's largely FUDD-less. It also allows soda cans and plastic bottles and yes, most people pick up after themselves. I have no idea why anyone's dog would be running around the target stands...

 

[ARV]

"Well I already have 30 in it. The only way I know how to unload it is to shoot it. Give me a second and I'll have it back to a safe number."

 

[dcmdon]

OK, then join the fuddly local club and deal with their fuddly local rules. Or don't and don't. Seems like a simple choice.

Exactly.

Thats why I belong to Mass Rifle - good guys and close, but lots of restrictions, and Harvard - farther away, and pretty much anything goes, although they do seem to have an irrational fear of a round skipping off the ground and going over the backstop.

With that said, MRA's fuddiness is somewhat justified since I 95 is only about a half mile beyond the backstop of most of the outdoor ranges.

 

[atilla]

Exactly.

Thats why I belong to Mass Rifle - good guys and close, but lots of restrictions, and Harvard - farther away, and pretty much anything goes, although they do seem to have an irrational fear of a round skipping off the ground and going over the backstop.

With that said, MRA's fuddiness is somewhat justified since I 95 is only about a half mile beyond the backstop of most of the outdoor ranges.

that doesn't justify anything. be aware of your target and what is beyond it. that's basic "don't **** this up, guns are serious" knowledge.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Exactly.

Thats why I belong to Mass Rifle - good guys and close, but lots of restrictions, and Harvard - farther away, and pretty much anything goes, although they do seem to have an irrational fear of a round skipping off the ground and going over the backstop.

With that said, MRA's fuddiness is somewhat justified since I 95 is only about a half mile beyond the backstop of most of the outdoor ranges.

that doesn't justify anything. be aware of your target and what is beyond it. that's basic "don't **** this up, guns are serious" knowledge.

If you guys have been to NES car/pumpkin shoots or watched the videos of same you should understand that the concern is legitimate! Many shooters are a cause of concern.

 

[atilla]

If you guys have been to NES car/pumpkin shoots or watched the videos of same you should understand that the concern is legitimate! Many shooters are a cause of concern.

i'm well aware of that, but that is more of an issue which should be addressed by RSOs or by another shooter. if i see someone ****ing up and throwing lead everywhere i'll see if i can assist them in checking their fire. i'm no ultimate marksman but if you're shooting worse than i am maybe i can help out.

i just don't believe in punishing the entire membership because some folks can't shoot. i didn't do it when i was a director at my old club, and i wouldn't agree with any club which currently does it with their silly rules.

 

[Rancho]

Exactly.

Thats why I belong to Mass Rifle - good guys and close, but lots of restrictions, and Harvard - farther away, and pretty much anything goes, although they do seem to have an irrational fear of a round skipping off the ground and going over the backstop.

With that said, MRA's fuddiness is somewhat justified since I 95 is only about a half mile beyond the backstop of most of the outdoor ranges.

Please don't take this the wrong way. If you spend some time and see some shooters do certain things and find things that have been damaged like high shots from rifle in a tree 15 ft off the ground there's so many more to list. Then you'd understand why there is an "irrational" fear of skipping a round outside the backstop.
I'm not bitchin' just putting it out there that one skip over the backstop and there's some neighbors that would gladly shut the club down and would not spare any effort in doing so.
The funny thing is no matter how many times you tell people about safe shooting there is inevitably a few that do' think it applies to them lol ..

 

[willbdavis]

Please don't take this the wrong way. If you spend some time and see some shooters do certain things and find things that have been damaged like high shots from rifle in a tree 15 ft off the ground there's so many more to list. Then you'd understand why there is an "irrational" fear of skipping a round outside the backstop.
I'm not bitchin' just putting it out there that one skip over the backstop and there's some neighbors that would gladly shut the club down and would not spare any effort in doing so.
The funny thing is no matter how many times you tell people about safe shooting there is inevitably a few that do' think it applies to them lol ..

I don't think there's anything irrational about a gun club wanting to make sure no rounds go off range. The most likely thing to shut down a club is exactly this.

I was a member at a club when an ******* managed to fire his SKS at roughly a 45 degree vertical angle. The bullet went up and over an 80 foot hill, over the trees, over a country club golf course, through the bedroom window of a 16 year old girl and into her laundry basket. The legal fall out was horrendous. The outdoor range was shut down for a year. The country club, a party to the legal action, was asking the judge to shut down the club for all shooting for ever. Ultimately the club had to spend a lot of money on legal fees and range mitigation before it could open back up.

The above was very ugly. Don't take this lightly. Keeping all rounds on the range is a critical consideration. If anyone doesn't appreciate this then perhaps he/she should reconsider using clubs' outdoor ranges.

 

[dcmdon]

that doesn't justify anything. be aware of your target and what is beyond it. that's basic "don't **** this up, guns are serious" knowledge.

Atilla - thats how I am. But we have a lot of new shooters at the club who somehow to whack the arm of a target holder with their ARs and other rifles an astonishing amount.

It doesn't change the fact that if a round gets out in a rural area, as wrong as it is, it probably won't hurt anyone. In an urban area, it IS more serous.

 

[mikem317]

Note to OP: Also avoid Andover Sportsmen Club.

There is a crap load, and I mean crap load of Fudds up that way. Visited it twice. No holster draws, 5 round magazine limits, no rapid fires, etc. I'm half surprised it's still in business when Londonderry F&G is just a few miles north and in a Free State.

 

[dcmdon]

Please don't take this the wrong way. If you spend some time and see some shooters do certain things and find things that have been damaged like high shots from rifle in a tree 15 ft off the ground there's so many more to list. Then you'd understand why there is an "irrational" fear of skipping a round outside the backstop.
I'm not bitchin' just putting it out there that one skip over the backstop and there's some neighbors that would gladly shut the club down and would not spare any effort in doing so.
The funny thing is no matter how many times you tell people about safe shooting there is inevitably a few that do' think it applies to them lol ..

I'm with you 100% on the high shots.

My point about an irrational fear is a basic lack of understanding with respect to the actual physics of a round after it skips off the ground. If a round hits the ground at more than a 20 deg or so angle, its not going to skip. Its going to dig in or tumble. If it hits at a shallow angle, its going to go back up at a shallow angle with a deformed face, no rotation and a lot less energy.

In short, its not a real issue, especially when you are looking at a 80 ft high backstop at some of the ranges at Harvard. The reason it matters is that they don't allow you to put targets like bowling pins or steel on the ground, for fear of a skip. Even if you put it right at the base of the backstop. Its dumb. But thats the only dumb rule I've found at Harvard, and since I'm not going to start my own gun club, I live with it.

The way MRA deals with high shots is to never have the shooter ever able to see any blue sky when shooting outdoors. There are baffles everywhere.

Don

 

[Asaltweapon]

If you guys have been to NES car/pumpkin shoots or watched the videos of same you should understand that the concern is legitimate! Many shooters are a cause of concern.

Frankly the gun handling skills of a few are scary. I've seen bullet holes in the air supply ductwork on the firing line, holes in sound deadening baffles and a HEPA filter machine shot up.
Then there was a very experienced shooter on our team who felt the need to sweep every single observer and scorer at a match one night that put almost every person on the ground or some POS pistol at another club that should have been destroyed years ago that kept finding its way as a roulette pointer at a scoring table. That team couldn't understand even the simplest rules of gun safety.

As a former pistol committee chairman nothing surprises me when it comes to pure stupidity.

 

[willbdavis]

I'm with you 100% on the high shots.

My point about an irrational fear is a basic lack of understanding with respect to the actual physics of a round after it skips off the ground. If a round hits the ground at more than a 20 deg or so angle, its not going to skip. Its going to dig in or tumble. If it hits at a shallow angle, its going to go back up at a shallow angle with a deformed face, no rotation and a lot less energy.

In short, its not a real issue, especially when you are looking at a 80 ft high backstop at some of the ranges at Harvard. The reason it matters is that they don't allow you to put targets like bowling pins or steel on the ground, for fear of a skip. Even if you put it right at the base of the backstop. Its dumb. But thats the only dumb rule I've found at Harvard, and since I'm not going to start my own gun club, I live with it.

The way MRA deals with high shots is to never have the shooter ever able to see any blue sky when shooting outdoors. There are baffles everywhere.

Don

Yeah, yeah, I've heard all these arguments about physics and "should" and "probably won't" with regard to bullets deflecting off the ground and going off range. So you're confident you know the composition of the dirt? How about rocks? What about water content? Does temperature make a difference? I'm sure you have studied all of these variables in a controlled lab environment.

The real question is, are you willing to bet the future of a gun club on the accuracy of your opinion? Is it even your decision to make? If you feel so strongly about this go before the Harvard BOD and make your case. We're pretty free and open at HSC, but ensuring the future of the club is very important to us.

Personally, at the same club that was closed down (mentioned previously) I personally saw the results of a 50 BMG round after it skipped along the ground. That trench must have been fifty feet long. Never found the projectile. What kind of idiot performs an "oops" with a 50 BMG?

Anyone who has been to an NES shoot has seen the results of rounds skipping and ricocheting: tree branches fifty feet up falling.

 

[willbdavis]

Watch this video: Some of these rounds are skipping off the dirt. I wonder how far they went? Imagine a development down range.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCsnSr6lqKM

this one is on water, but you get the idea:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b52_1371102793

 

[bmac10]

I've been a member at Marshfield for @ 15years. There are lots of us with "military" style firearms - ak's and ar's aplenty. I have never encountered this fudd stuff. I will say the reason the count is limited is we are in a dense area and cranking off 30-60 rounds is going to annoy those who regularly attend town meeting. Scituate down the street can give you a firsthand account of why nobody can shoot much of anything there anymore. Most of us would love to go vietnam style with full mags but that's the price of living around here. When I read of the tough guy posts here about ripping it off and leaving I pray you guys aren't talking to the "straights" out there - you're ruining our cause..

 

[dcmdon]

Will,

In a way, that video proves my point. The rounds all seem to meet the "angle of incidence = angle of reflection" sniff test. And the ones that don't have clearly hit something vertical or nearly so. They seem to lob up and come down not too far from whatever it was that sent them up at such an angle. Again, this rule is in effect at ranges where there is a 50 ft hill for a backstop that goes up at a steep angle.

Whatever. Its a minor inconvenience. HSC is a great club, with lots of great member. But it still doesn't make any sense.

Have you been to HSC? Have you seen some of the ranges I'm talking about??

 

[willbdavis]

Have you been to HSC? Have you seen some of the ranges I'm talking about??

I'm the 100 yard range chairman at HSC. The berms and hills are good and the soil is very sandy.

But back to my experience with the previously mentioned club. The hill down range was 80 feet high with trees on top of it. In addition to the two incidents I referenced previously (round through girl's window and 50 BMG ground shot), a walk in the woods up near the country club would yield bullets on the ground amongst the trees. They were fairly easy to find. This would have been a few hundred yards down range and near the top of the 80 foot hill. Giving my fellow club members the benefit of the doubt (not aiming ridiculously high), I would guess these were ricochets. Can I prove it? No. Does it matter? No! Because regardless of how they got there they got there. A little further and they would have ended up on a golf course.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThXRVkXHjc&list=RDrThXRVkXHjc#t=53

 

[warwickben]

I'm with you 100% on the high shots.

My point about an irrational fear is a basic lack of understanding with respect to the actual physics of a round after it skips off the ground. If a round hits the ground at more than a 20 deg or so angle, its not going to skip. Its going to dig in or tumble. If it hits at a shallow angle, its going to go back up at a shallow angle with a deformed face, no rotation and a lot less energy.

In short, its not a real issue, especially when you are looking at a 80 ft high backstop at some of the ranges at Harvard. The reason it matters is that they don't allow you to put targets like bowling pins or steel on the ground, for fear of a skip. Even if you put it right at the base of the backstop. Its dumb. But thats the only dumb rule I've found at Harvard, and since I'm not going to start my own gun club, I live with it.

The way MRA deals with high shots is to never have the shooter ever able to see any blue sky when shooting outdoors. There are baffles everywhere.

Don

Me and coldayinhell still don't understand how some one hit the top of the last baffle with a steel core round. That part of the baffle is blocked by the others ones from the firing line . No way it skipped and got stock in it . Not sure what board member it was . Came out and sat behind us one time. Commented on me shooting my bolt action pretty fast.(like I'd have better groups if I went slower) he had us stopped and pointed All the bullet holes in the baffle to us. Said he knew it wasn't us since all our shots where on paper . But to stop any one bring dumb .
I'm pretty shocked at how bad people can be . But for me drop the fudd rules , teach a bad shooter how to hit paper or kick dumbassss out seems like a better idea .


The one round rule on the 100/200 .. Only reason I understand that one is if I show up with a ar me shooting fast through the tube going to mess up the guy next to me shooting a bolt action trying to get the tightest group.

 

[bob68]

Any club that needs ROs is not a club I want to join or would ever join. Jeezum people. Do they have arse wipers at your clubs? Do they have milk and cookie time too?

my club has no range officers. it is everyones duty to speak up when they feel that something is unsafe. its all common sense.

bob

 

[Coyote33]

OK, then join the fuddly local club and deal with their fuddly local rules. Or don't and don't. Seems like a simple choice.

I agree, for the most part. One option you left out is to join, and work to make it better. I've been at my club around 10 years, and am still the "new guy".

 

[dcmdon]

Will - ha, why didn''t you mention that. You clearly know more than I do then about HSC. At a time when all the ranges were cold, have you ever walked up the berms and looked for any bullets up high? I'm just curious.

My biggest gripe is mainly in the pistol pits. If I put a bowling pin, right at the base of the berm, there is no way the bullet is going ricochet at an angle that would put it over the berm. And if it did, it woulld have had to hit something at such an oblique angle that it would be massively deformed and slowed.

But again. I'm good with it. I just brought it up because people were mentioning dumb rules. I greatly appreciate all the freedom that HSC offers. I am a very very happy member.



Ben - the answer is simple. the guy did a matrix thing where he curved the bullet path. No seriously. My guess is he was in front of the firing line, which is a big no no because it defeats the baffles. As it is, people have to qualify for the 50 and 100/200 at MRA. So they do their due diligence.

I did once watch a member's guest put a round into a baffle. The member himself wasn't really confident what happened. I started trying to figure it out and after talking with the guest noticed that he was holding the top of the front post on an AR even with the top edge of the aperture. he didn't realize he was supposed to look through the aperture, not over it. So he was shooting up at about 15 degrees. No harm was done. Both the member and the guest were very very very apologetic. The member continued to beat himself up for not better supervising the guest for the rest of their time there. Lesson learned. I'm sure the member won't make that mistake again.