I've seen that crap too. Literally straight up, overhead at an outdoor range. It boggles the mind.
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Fudd Rules Instituted At My Club
- Thread starter OfficerObie59
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I've seen that crap too. Literally straight up, overhead at an outdoor range. It boggles the mind.
If they made rule changes bc they don't have the balls to call out offenders then the solution is simple....IGNORE THE RULES...no one will bother you.
In any case, you probably don't want to be a member with rules like these so....IGNORE THE RULES...see how long it takes to get kicked out.
Might as well get the maximum benefit out of your 2012 dues.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
In any case, you probably don't want to be a member with rules like these so....IGNORE THE RULES...see how long it takes to get kicked out.
Might as well get the maximum benefit out of your 2012 dues.
xtry51
NES Member
If they made rule changes bc they don't have the balls to call out offenders then the solution is simple....IGNORE THE RULES...no one will bother you.
In any case, you probably don't want to be a member with rules like these so....IGNORE THE RULES...see how long it takes to get kicked out.
Might as well get the maximum benefit out of your 2012 dues.
This is really what you should do since apparently the only consequence to breaking rules is the creation of more rules you won't have to follow.
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Coyote33 said:
We finaly put up cameras to catch bad behavior and had Members checking the range daily and it's still hard to single out a problem but at least we can narrow down who was there that day and it's easier to speak to people. Cameras are a double edged sword but if used properly can help A few times they have been a slam dunk in catching someone shooting after hours. More rules does nothing, culling bad apples from the barrel is what is needed.
1) Mention cameras here on NES and you can count the posts until someone invokes Godwin's Law.
2) Many clubs don't have power at outdoor ranges, so mounting cameras is not an inexpensive undertaking.
3) Few cameras have the resolution to show bullet impacts. So you end up with footage of people shooting, but you still have no idea which person's rounds hit the overhead baffles and which hit their target a little high.
P-14
NES Member
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
Put some cameras down range.
Good luck seeing a bullet impact, particularly on a wide range.
Thats part of the problem - the other is and established 'clique-y' group of members who are reluctant to change. My club had 400-members now. At monthly meetings, it's the same 10-15 people who show up and ultimately guide the club. This despite regular appeals to the body of the membership to show up to a monthly meeting, work party, or even email the BoD with ideas, comments, suggestions and concerns. Generally, members will show up, email or leave a voicemail to bitch about something, but thats about it...Most members at most clubs can point their dissatisfaction to their own apathy...
While I see your point, I also maintain that at least in our case, apathetic membership is more a factor than 'cowardly club officers'. We cannot afford to RO our line 11-hours a day - 7 days a week, so we've had to institute policies for everyone to follow. Up until recently, we did not have a 'no mag dump' rule, but had to institute it, because we cannot be there all the time and the damage to the range is not only evident, but the club president had rounds sailing over his head when he was pouring footers on the skeet field as two members were cleaning out their AR mags on the rifle range. Those members were dealt with immediately and publicly. Every member goes through an orientation and every member is cautioned that our rifle range is 100% built on ledge and that rounds on the ground are not a good idea. They were asked not to bumpfire or mag dump unless their rounds were going into the berm, but still we have issues. The more Fuddy members wanted magazine limits and timed seconds in between shots. There was once a 2-round magazine limit way back when and it was brought up for rebirth. I personally would have resigned my position and left the club. What we wound up with was a compromise: 'No mag dumps, bump firing or full-auto fire unless part of a sanctioned event, or under the supervision of a club appointed, certified range safety officer'. May seem lame to some, but it has saved our club so far. After RSO-ing an event where there was 50-foot berms and watching people walk up and over them consistently, I can say with certainty, that there's a measured percentage of the shooting population that need practice - lots of it. Sadly, we have to guard against those people, as we can't be there all the time...That may mean an inconvenience to some, but it is what it is...
Trust me. I've seen that an more, however I have also seen monumental changes happen at my club through the persistent activism of certain people I know....
They are a good tool and we have them installed at our gate and clubhouse. We do not have power to our rifle ranges, so we depend on people policing themselves. That works out fairly well overall, but not always and those are the people that we try to seek, find and remove from our club roster... It's easy to sit and talk about, unless you actually do it...Before cameras, going down to the indoor pistol range and finding 3-shot groups into the 1-inch LexGuard covering the circuit breaker was commonplace. Now - not at all. With no cameras at the rifle range, the damage to the facility is ongoing. I'll photograph some one day. People have to repair this damage and amazingly enough, those that inflict it are not usually seen at the work parties... Some think their dues and range fees are enough and as long as you have that mindset, rules will be enforced - many to the chagrin of those that offend and those who do not....
OfficerObie59
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How far do you think required quals during orientation would go to solving this? I know that still leaves the weighty issue of guest shooters, but I wonder what the take is on range quals from those with expeirience running a club.
I actually like the idea of fully coded access control fobs/key cards. Expensive to install, no doubt, but if you're range is like mine and rotates keys every year to keep out those dropped from the rolls, seems it would make things a lot easier for everyone as well as determine who was there when. Certainly not a panecea, but might help catch those doing damage.
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Yup. The same is true at my club. We're smaller (~200 people) and the same 6-10 people always show up to the meetings and work parties. Almost all of the elections that have been held in the past 15 years have been uncontested, and when we've had a vacancy we have had to dragoon someone into filling it.
Exactly. It is easy to say "find the cretins and toss them out." Much harder to actually do in practice.
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Disclaimer: I don't run a club, nor have I ever. That said... I don't like the idea; I think it would chase away an awful lot of potential members. Unfortunately, I can see that it may well be needed some day... mainly due to two things: encroachment (people building downrange from the range) and lawyers.
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
dixidawg
NES Member
We just started range orientation for the entire club body followed by all new applicants a little over a year ago. It's a pain in the ass, as all three chairs for rifle, (me), pistol and indoor pistol have to put on the show, but it has given us piece of mind and the ability to get 'eyes on' the membership. We haven't gone to qual yet and I hope we never do, because again - it will fall on myself and a smattering of others to do it. The range orientations have helped and I think improving cameras will as well - as unpopular as that may seem. We already have a good idea who's coming and going and can narrow down problems as they arise, by time stamp of folks driving by the clubhouse and to the rifle range gates. However, not everyone - especially the problematic, sign in and pay their range fees - another issue we're working on. I have researched proximity gates and they're expensive - about $10k a piece. We're a 501C3 and run on a very tight budget, so unless we have a fundraiser specifically for these gates and keyfobs, the chances are slim - unless someone sees the tax write off as enough of an incentive to donate one.
Fudd rules are IMO a waste of energy and annoying, but as others have commented enforcement is hard. I see people not even doing basic stuff like close gates behind them and spin the locks - as required and specifically talked about at orientation.
Reading the accounts of the latest NES car shoot, there were several RSOs standing right behind the line, and still people were shooting over the berms, and into the ground. Many were observed and corrected on the spot, but I'm sure many more went undetected by the RSOs. So what hope is there for 24X7 monitoring of a range. Sure there are many fewer shooters, but a lot more time to cover.
MisterHappy
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The real problem is that you can't fix stupid.
If you're unable to keep your shots below the top of the berm, then you should be smart enough to get trained assistance.
The other part of the problem is that you can't fix a-holes (unless you catch them red-handed). Here's a true story: A guest came t our club to shoot trap. "You need steel shot," he was told. "OK" he said.
He then took an empty steel-shot box from the trash, went to his car, put his lead ammo into the box, and went to the line and shot a round.
It was not until he left that this was discovered....but ..WTF?
If you're unable to keep your shots below the top of the berm, then you should be smart enough to get trained assistance.
The other part of the problem is that you can't fix a-holes (unless you catch them red-handed). Here's a true story: A guest came t our club to shoot trap. "You need steel shot," he was told. "OK" he said.
He then took an empty steel-shot box from the trash, went to his car, put his lead ammo into the box, and went to the line and shot a round.
It was not until he left that this was discovered....but ..WTF?
fencer
NES Member
Yep.. my last time on the range, two meat heads, acting like morons, pulled out a stockless AK on the hundred yard range and proceeded to shoot rapid fire. The berm has to be 30 feet tall and their impacts were not even 5 feet from the top.
So I asked them if they could see the targets there at the bottom of the hill, and that if they let a few sail over the berm that it wouldn't go over well. They looked at me like I was an ass****. So I told them that if they can't hit what they are aiming at, the AK was just a noise maker. Then I put 10 rounds onto the smallest steel plate at the back of the 100 yard range
namedpipes
NES Member
MANY years ago I bought an HK-91 as my first "real" rifle.
It was the most inaccurate son of a bitchin rifle you can imagine. I wasted over a grand on that damned thing. I was happy if I could get the stupid holes in the same zip code as the paper, never mind near the little circle in the middle.
Then one day some guy came over and asked if he could shoot it. I'm like, "Sure, but you're not going to hit shit with it."
The moron walks downrange (cold) and puts five bic lighters in a row, somewhere around 75 yards.
He comes back, I'm L my A off and I gleefully watch him miss his first shot.
Bastard nailed the lighters with his next five shots.
He thanked me for letting him shoot and since I no longer had the crutch of an "inaccurate" rifle, I got better. Appleseed added some skills, too. Now I'm an OK shot. Plenty of room for improvement.
People get pigheaded and stubborn, thinking they're the best because they're shooting an expensive rifle. We can all improve and shouldn't turn down well intended constructive criticism.
It was the most inaccurate son of a bitchin rifle you can imagine. I wasted over a grand on that damned thing. I was happy if I could get the stupid holes in the same zip code as the paper, never mind near the little circle in the middle.
Then one day some guy came over and asked if he could shoot it. I'm like, "Sure, but you're not going to hit shit with it."
The moron walks downrange (cold) and puts five bic lighters in a row, somewhere around 75 yards.
He comes back, I'm L my A off and I gleefully watch him miss his first shot.
Bastard nailed the lighters with his next five shots.
He thanked me for letting him shoot and since I no longer had the crutch of an "inaccurate" rifle, I got better. Appleseed added some skills, too. Now I'm an OK shot. Plenty of room for improvement.
People get pigheaded and stubborn, thinking they're the best because they're shooting an expensive rifle. We can all improve and shouldn't turn down well intended constructive criticism.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
OfficerObie59
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Again, I definitely don't agree that these things aren't problems, only that the new rules are not valid or helpful solutions.
Nice lesson in humility everyone could learn from.
xtry51
NES Member
Yeah, but was it so bad you were missing the berm? The people causing the issue are missing 30ft tall, 50 yard wide hills.
namedpipes
NES Member
No, I wasn't THAT bad!
I see your point and raise you one as well. Often, you have as I mentioned, an entrenched, historic, Fudd base membership and club officers. In the more 'established' clubs, (LSA is 100 years old), you could have generations of old guard and old thinking. The approach to a problem is often to throw rules at it - especially when it comes to more modern shooting and these 'new fangled guns'. To be fair, you additionally have members and officers who genuinely love their club and pour themselves into to the day-to-day, year-to-year operations and nuances of the property. Internal pressures of continual damage to the ranges, coupled with rising costs of material and shrinking membership to fix it. You also have external pressures of rounds leaving the range and of course - the dreaded 'unneighborly neighbors' and the 'sue thy neighbor' mentality so prevalent today. Im not validating your clubs action - just stating that I understand where it comes from...
I am one of those members who loves my club. It's my second home. More often than not, I shoot the shit there as much as I shoot my guns. I'll often go after a long day and just sit, or walk the property and breathe. It's a part of who I am. I do not and cannot hold the same bar to the body of the membership, but as a club officer and someone who invests a great deal of himself there, I'm often caught in a balancing act of propelling the club forward, honoring it's past and preserving our ability to operate. Sometimes that involves making choices and instituting rules that may be deemed heavy handed or unpopular to simply preserve the gains made and appease those who think inside a very narrow box...
The best advice I can give anyone is to get involved in your club. It does not take an extraordinary amount of time and energy to get yourself heard. Your ideas and passions will not be accepted overnight - trust me on this. In most cases, it will be a battle - some with those who are stuck in Fuddland USA - and others with people who simply wear their club as part of who they are...Ask me how I know...
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
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dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Next time you hear someone do a mag dump, and you're looking at the impacts wondering what the hell they're aiming at, ask them. Usually the reply to "what were you aiming at?" is "the berm".
dixidawg
NES Member
I
The best advice I can give anyone is to get involved in your club. It does not take an extraordinary amount of time and energy to get yourself heard. Your ideas and passions will not be accepted overnight - trust me on this. In most cases, it will be a battle - some with those who are stuck in Fuddland USA - and others with people who simply wear their club as part of who they are...Ask me how I know...
This bears repeating. If it is YOUR club you need to participate.
The best advice I can give anyone is to get involved in your club. It does not take an extraordinary amount of time and energy to get yourself heard. Your ideas and passions will not be accepted overnight - trust me on this. In most cases, it will be a battle - some with those who are stuck in Fuddland USA - and others with people who simply wear their club as part of who they are...Ask me how I know...
Amen.
The other thing to realize is that when you present your opinions, you have to present them in a way that they can be heard. If you go into a meeting and say "that rule is bunch of BS created by a bunch of FUDD old farts, yadda, yadda, yadda," guess what? You just blew your chances of making a change.
Expect it to take time. Gain the confidence of the club leaders (formal and informal) before trying to tackle controversial changes.
