FTF Protocols

Executive

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Mods: sorry if I put this in the wrong place. Feel free to move or edit.

I am about to make my first FTF transaction with a forum member. Can anyone recommend a location for the transaction? Not a specific location, but a type of area. For example, should we meet in a public area or stay out of the way? Should we be alone or have a friend come along? What papers, if any, should we exchange other than FA-10? (Copy of LTC, drivers license, etc.) Is it required to provide a lock or just generous? What about "safe transport" procedures during the actual exchange?

I'm not expressing any mistrust, just common sense safety when dealing with a forum member who is otherwise a total stranger.

Regards,
Chris

The FA-10 form referred to in this thread is for Massachusetts transfers only.
 
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wchandler

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The only paperwork needed is the FA10 form. You should look at their LTC to see if it is still valid, etc..., but is more to protect you from selling to an unlicensed person. I usually throw a lock in out of curtisy, but I believe is only required for dealers.

As for meeting place, your options are unlimited. I've meet in mall parking lots, gun clubs, McDonalds and even once meet at a gun shop and filled out the paperwork on the back counter. If you like that option call your local dealer and ask him if he has a problem with that. I would think they wouldn't mind because it's at least getting people in the store. You buyer might need some ammo or a new holster!!!!

If you're selling a handgun there is no special transport, basically it's your carry gun. Rifles and shotgun need to be cased and I believed locked.

Hope this helps! If you're really nervous Zero Hour Arms only charges $20-$25 for the transfer. Small price for piece of mind.
 

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I am sure others will add to this. I would do it in private. I assume you will want to inspect the gun before you sign the papers, The middle of a parking lot might not be the place to do so. When ever I have sold items including firearms I have found it was custom for the buyer to travel to the seller. If you wanted to get a used car from the want-ad, you most likely would drive to the sellers house.

I think there is any reason to have a friend present except just for company or if they are more knowledgeable about the product you are seeking. I have never been in a battle over a transaction.

When the FA10 is filled, the information of the 2 parties will be entered. I don't think there is any reason to make copies of LTC's.

Transportation, there is a current thread running on this in the laws forum.

I am not sure about the lock in a FTF. When I sold my Sar-1 to Adam I offered to give him one but he had is own.
 

Executive

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I'm not "nervous" about the transaction itself. I'm more concerned with attracting attention and getting questioned as to whats going on. Perhaps I'm paranoid living in MA, but I'd like to make sure that all my ducks are in a row and I do not want to give any cause for suspicion. By all accounts this transaction should take about ten minutes and I may be making too big a deal about this. I'm just a stickler for correct procedures, security, and safety.

Regards,
Chris
 

BillO

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If you're like me, my main concern is to abide by all local and state laws, and to deliver a firearm to a properly licensed individual. ALWAYS insist on viewing the individual's LTC. Verify the buyers LTC is current, and that the FA-10 is completed WITHOUT EXCEPTION prior to delivery of the firearm. My transactions have been effortless so far and I've met some outstanding individuals in the process. I think a slight sense of uneasiness is normal in FTF transactions given the responsibilities involved.
 
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I have either gone to thier house, or I've done it at the club.

Both places let you look at, and examine the gun without concern from outside people.

One, we did the paperwork at Papa Ginos, and then swapped the gun at a gun club.
 
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Being in Maine I obviously don't have to worry about all the MA BS. Each time I've done a FTF transaction it's been completely different. Once we met near a local strip mall, this was meeting a completely unknown person & I felt a relatively public place was best. Another was at a range, which gave the opportunity to test fire; & another was at a persons place of business.(no company firearms policy concerns since he was the owner)

If it's a sale, I make sure they're a ME resident & I keep a copy of their contact info for my own records. If a purchase I let the seller dictate the requirements, no one has asked for more than I've required so far.

Abide by the local laws and use common sense. Stay away from parkinglots near schools, large malls and those with tons of surveilance cameras; no need to cause a panic.

CD
 

wchandler

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If you are in a public place, nobody knows or cares what you are doing. I have had guys field strip my gun standing at the back of my Jeep.

I would recommend a shooting range because you don't have to worry and can focus on the business at hand!! Basically, just use some common sense and you'll be fine!!!
 
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C-pher said:
I have either gone to thier house, or I've done it at the club.

Both places let you look at, and examine the gun without concern from outside people.

One, we did the paperwork at Papa Ginos, and then swapped the gun at a gun club.
Yeah, that was the safest Papa Gino's in Massachusetts, at least for an hour or so... :)
 

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Chris,

No, this is an excellent post and belongs here. I just made it into a sticky.

I do NOT recommend random parking lots, business locations, public parks, etc. for gun transfers. TOO many places have surveillance cameras and could call Swat down on you if they spot you. I've seen how closely some of those cameras can focus in and it's scary!

My recommendations for dealing with strangers:

- Gun clubs, yours or his/hers.
- Doing it at a gun shop is OK if the owner is cool with the idea (usually you will have to be a good customer of the shop to get the OK).
- A private club (if a member of a veterans group, etc.) would work.
- Back when I was a Special PO, I would have considered doing it at the PD lobby. I wouldn't do it now and I would never have done it with the current chief.

I wouldn't invite anyone to my house or go to their house to do a transfer unless the person were otherwise known to me.

I would do up 2 copies of a bill of sale as well as the SINGLE FA-10. In the bill of sale I would give details of gun, LTC number, buyer and seller info, plus anything related to proof of being "in state" on 10/21/98 (if true) so that purchaser could re-sell thru FFL at some future time if they wanted to do so. Both parties review BOTH LTCs, FA-10, and bill of sale and sign FA-10 and bill of sales. Both parties get copies of FA-10 and bill of sale.

There have been some folks here that were paranoid of the buyer knowing where they live, etc. in that case any transfer must be done by FFL (that limits what handguns they can sell), because if both parties don't physically check both LTCs for validity (and they have home addresses on them), you are looking for trouble . . . I'd run away from any deal that was "trust me, but I refuse to show you my LTC".

Private party sales do NOT require providing a gun lock or case or any other paperwork.

HOWEVER, holders of a C&R FFL may need to review the BATFE rules. It appears that we are supposed to give the "handgun warning" booklet with ANY sale of a pistol, even if it isn't a C&R! So, there may be additional requirements for some folks (I am NOT certain, but have seen the implication).
 
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LenS said:
HOWEVER, holders of a C&R FFL may need to review the BATFE rules. It appears that we are supposed to give the "handgun warning" booklet with ANY sale of a pistol, even if it isn't a C&R! So, there may be additional requirements for some folks (I am NOT certain, but have seen the implication).

WHOA Nelly. What's this???


I would hope that one of the counselors here will clear this up for us.
 

Len-2A Training

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The books are sent to ALL FFLs, including C&R FFLs. It's our responsibility to read and understand them. We do give up some "civilian freedom" when we accept the C&R FFL.

Recent discovery of mine was as follows:

- If ANY of our guns are ever stolen or found "missing", we MUST call a special 800 number and then fill out some forms for BATFE! Even if we are a C&R FFL and the missing gun is NOT a C&R.

- Personally I think this is an excellent idea. Not only that but if we ever travel with guns and an airline claims to have lost our checked bag with a firearm in it . . . ask to borrow their phone to report the loss to BATFE . . . I guarantee that they will pull out all the stops to find the missing bag (which is usually just misplaced)! [smile] Likewise if a PD ever confiscates someones (a C&R FFL holder) guns for any reason and when you go to claim them they give you with the "we can't find them" routine (it happens with some frequency, especially in places like Boston). It's the law, but it is also something that could be an attention getter. NOBODY likes the Feds breathing down their neck . . . and you are only doing what the law requires. [wink]
 
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LenS said:
The books are sent to ALL FFLs, including C&R FFLs. It's our responsibility to read and understand them. We do give up some "civilian freedom" when we accept the C&R FFL.
I really don't remember getting the handgun warning books when they sent me my periodicals. I guess that I have to call to get them. Is there a fee with getting a package of them?
 

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I don't recall if the handgun warning booklet comes with the books/paperwork that the BATFE sent out (it was >7 years ago for me). I also don't know if they charge for a package of 100 of those booklets . . . which should cover all your trades and sales for the next year anyway. [smile]

Why not print a few out from the URL I posted above? It is only 2 sheets of paper.
 
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LenS said:
I don't recall if the handgun warning booklet comes with the books/paperwork that the BATFE sent out (it was >7 years ago for me). I also don't know if they charge for a package of 100 of those booklets . . . which should cover all your trades and sales for the next year anyway. [smile]

Why not print a few out from the URL I posted above? It is only 2 sheets of paper.

I will have too, when I wrote up my reply, I didnt' see that second post.

But now I do, thanks Len. [smile]
 

Len-2A Training

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C-pher,

I added the URL. I first posted and then thought that perhaps it was on the website. So I went back and looked . . . then I posted the URL by editing my post.
 

Hawgleg44

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When meeting someone from the boards for a FTF, I usually go to a public parking lot, just to make it easy for us both to find. I've one FTF transfers in supermarket parking lots, Subway parking lots, etc. I really don't concern myself with the security cameras. I guess maybe some have good equipment, but most of them couldn't make out what type of vehicle you're driving, let along what you have in your hand! Even a large company like Wal-Mart has some of the cheapest security cameras there are!

I just exchange LTC's so we both know that we are legal for the gun/guns we are transferring, then we check out the guns and do the FA-10 form. Were not breaking any laws, so I don't feel it's necessary to go out of our way to hide from people. It's not like we are flashing the guns around and being irresponsible or anything. We keep the guns below the line of sight in the vehicles and there's no problem.

Most gunshop owners I've met don't like personal transfers happening in their stores. I don't blame them, either. They are the ones who pay the rent, insurance, electric, etc there. I feel it's insulting to them to conduct your business in their shop. Just my opinion, though.
 

stosh

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Appears this thread has done an excellent job of summarizing the face to face type transfer protocols for MA. Anyone able to / care to offer up the requirements for FTF transfer in New Hampshire, and perhaps even Maine and Vermont? Appears to me there might be of some interest. Thanks.
 
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stosh said:
Anyone able to / care to offer up the requirements for FTF transfer in New Hampshire, and perhaps even Maine and Vermont?
Can't speak for other states, but according to state law for a handgun you need to either know the person (to not be restricted) or they should have a valid NH Pistol/Revolver License.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-14.htm

159:14 Exemption. – None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him.
Some people appear to be having problems so here is some additional information from http://www.gonh.org/ and quoted here just incase the site changes:

gonh.com said:
Attorney Advises Caution in Private Party Handgun Sales
December 20, 2005
Perhaps as a result of pressure from Massachusetts, GO-NH attorney Penny Dean reports that an increasing number of individuals are facing felony charges for private sale of a handgun, under the provisions of RSA 159:10.

However, RSA 159:14 states, "None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him."

That is to say, you can legally sell a personal handgun to a New Hampshire resident whom you know or who has either a license to sell, or a license to carry.

It appears that certain jurisdictions are ignoring this exemption, or are demanding that the defendant prove their innocence in court at considerable expense.

Until this issue is addressed by the court, Ms. Dean recommends that anyone seeking to sell a personal handgun - particularly in urban southern New Hampshire - complete the sale through a firearms dealer. Or, if you do sell privately, get a copy of the individual's carry and drivers' license in case you have to prove that the buyer is a New Hampshire resident and that RSA 159:14 applies.
Seems like a pretty safe practice to me.
 
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Vermont is real simple.

1. If you know they're a criminal or ex-con, don't sell to them. Don't sell to non-residents, either. Make sure they're 21 for pistol, or 18 for rifle. State law may say 16 (it used to), but use the Federal Law's ages. Less trouble that way.

2. If they're OK to sell to per #1 above, take their money, then give them the gun. A 2 copy Bill of Sale might be nice, but isn't needed. If you do the BoS, each of you gets a copy. You don't even need to know each other's names otherwise.

Like I said, pretty simple.
 

zork51

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The 4 Seasons in Woburn will

charge a small fee for doing it. They are the nicest people there to do business with also. If this location is within your range, it might be worth it.

Tell them Brian L. sent you.
 

will99

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How are the FTF transactioned defined?

Hi,

Could someone clarify for me what is categorized as a personal transaction for MA residence?

I'm under the impressions that so far this year because I:

Sold my 686 to a friend of mine.
Traded my toy for his toy.

That I only have 1 personal FTF A-10 left.

Others are saying because I only sold once to my friends that I have 3 other personal sales that I can do?

Any help would be great.

Thanks,
William
 

wchandler

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William,
You are allowed 4 personal transfer per calendar year. If you and your buddy exchange toys, then you 3 three left until 12/31/2006. If you use up your 4, then you have to use a FFL dealer to process the transaction. The four can be direct sales or exchanges, I doesn't matter. BTW - You can buy as many guns through personal FTF transfer's and your wallet will allow!!! Hope this helps..
 

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Let me clarify

Thanks for the quick response. Does the 4 allowed per calendar A10 transaction count towards only my selling Gun-A and trading of Gun-B to friend? Even though I traded my Gun-B for his Smith .41?

If I read you correctly, then I only blew through 2 transaction this year and should have 2 left to sell?

That would be sweeet if the case! I could possibly include selling my G34 that I paid with my first born for IPSC but never went and can no longer go because of other obligations.[smile]
 

wchandler

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That is correct. Gun-A (1), Gun-B(2), the Smith .41 was incoming and only counts toward your buddies 4 count. You have 2 left!!!
 
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