Franklin Arsenal Wet Tumbler ?

[pastera]

To just clean the brass for reloading, you don't need the pins. The pins get the primer pockets and case interior cleaned and polished (unnecessary). No pins means you can double the output (with smaller cases)

I made a drum cap for the HF tumbler that has window screen to allow you to drain and rinse without losing pins - I'll post on request.

A small wire (or plastic mesh) basket on a fan dries in about an hour so you can do a continuous process.

 

[DW357]

Thread drift warning...

Too many steps for wet tumbling for me. Aint nobody got time fo dat.

I dry tumble

Same. My brass gets plenty clean and shiny by dry tumbling. And after reading EddieCoyle's test regarding accuracy with dry vs wet tumbling a number of years ago, I'll stick with dry tumbling. I'd lose my mind if I'd have to lay my brass out in the sun to dry or buy a dehydrator/oven to dry the brass. Craziness. But to each their own!!

 

[Golddiggie]

Does your ammo shoot better with super clean brass?

I've found the opposite to be true with any ammo that matters.

And I have data that backs it up.

ETA: This type of thread amuses me. Who cares how clean your brass gets if it doesn't shoot any better - especially pistol brass? If I get 2 MOA out of handgun rounds I'm jumping for joy because I can't shoot better than that (also, how clean it is doesn't matter).

I've done a lot of experimentation with rifle brass and I've found that dry tumbled brass averages 1/8 MOA better groups vs. wet tumbled brass, and I challenge anyone to dispute this. Unless you're lubing your necks with mica, you are wasting time to make less accurate ammo. Even if you're lubing your necks with mica, you're performing two extra steps for no gain. Dry tumble. You save two steps. No need to decap first, and no need to dry them off. (OK, you save one step unless you're in a hurry and don't plan to lube the necks, but if you wet tumble, dry, and lube, you save three steps).

Honestly, 1/8 MOA is such a small number that it's not even worth mentioning to 99.9995% of people here. To keep it in perspective, we're talking about 1 INCH at 800 yards. If you care about that tiny value, then you're over the top AR (not firearm AR either).

 

[EddieCoyle]

Honestly, 1/8 MOA is such a small number that it's not even worth mentioning to 99.9995% of people here. To keep it in perspective, we're talking about 1 INCH at 800 yards. If you care about that tiny value, then you're over the top AR (not firearm AR either).

What if you discover 4 things like this? Then is it worth it?

Also, to be clear, I'm not adding a step to get 1/8 MOA, I'm subracting 1-3 depending on how you load.

 

[Gusp]

I'm not an exceptional shot, and certainly don't do precision shooting, but with all due deference have to say I am quite skeptical of a supposed 1/8 MOA improvement for dry tumbled cases. I am open to being informed, as long as someone else is buying the components.

Wet tumbling is faster (less than an our of tumbling), quieter, less likely to lead to atmospheric lead contamination, uses media that lasts forever, and leaves your brass shining like jewelry, slick and easy to handle, and the metal passivized to resist corrosion. If I don't splash any cleaning liquid on myself I don't feel like I need to shower afterwards. The clean insides of the cases make visual inspection of powder loads a snap, and that reduced effort adds up over thousands of cases.

Yes, on a sunny day, the brass dries faster if you put it out in the sun, especially if you are drying a lot of brass. But it's not necessary though. I've been cleaning brass lately and just laying it out on towels and rubbing it around for a few minutes, then pouring it out to dry overnight in my basement. I have a dehumidifier, but it is still a basement. If it's humid, I'll preheat the oven at a low temperature and throw them in there for a little while.

I can see lots of reasons to prefer dry tumbling, including lower up front cost and a higher tolerance for long tumbling times, noise, and dust, and a reluctance to leave brass out lying around to dry if you shoot thousands of rounds every week I guess.

And I suppose the need to deprime before tumbling might be an argument against wet tumbling. But I'd rather keep the inevitably dirty depriming a separate step, and in my mind, 1/8 MOA improvements in accuracy are getting into the realm of snake oil.

The big pluses for wet tumbling: less noise, cleaner brass, zero dust.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I actually stopped cleaning the brass for precision rifle ammo. If the necks get dirty I'll wipe them down with a little Ballistol after they're loaded. I wet tumble my bulk pistol and rifle brass without pins in one of these.

The rest gets dry tumbled.

As far as the 1/8 MOA stuff goes, there are several things I do (or don't do) with my precison brass that each represent a small improvement in group size. Some (like flash hole deburring and the way I sort the brass) are one-time operations, others (like trimming) are intermittent, and some things I do every time. It adds up.

 

[Smokewagon]

Anybody use the Franklin Arsenal wet tumbler ? The results look spectacular...I'm just not sure wet/pin tumbling is for me. My *old* Lyman still does an "ok" job (think "satin" finish vs "semi-gloss") but after the last batch I'm starting to feel the need for something new.

Platinum Series Rotary Wet Tumbler 7L

The Frankford Arsenal Rotary Tumbler delivers a whole new level of brass cleaning performance. The wet tumbler drums hold up to 1000 pieces of .223 brass

www.frankfordarsenal.com

I have one and love it. I've tapered off shooting as much as i had been in the last year+, but i've got 5 gallon buckets of shiny brass because of that tumbler. I've got a spinning separator and a magnet and it makes life super easy. I use a .25ACP case(Maybe .32 not 100% sure without checking) of Lemishine and a tablespoon of car wash and wax(not sure of the brand). For every load i run through the tumbler. Does a fantastic job. I find that the wash and wax vs dish soap keeps the cases semi-lubed and seem to run better in my press.

 

[akma]

I actually stopped cleaning the brass for precision rifle ammo. If the necks get dirty I'll wipe them down with a little Ballistol after they're loaded. I wet tumble my bulk pistol and rifle brass without pins in one of these.

The rest gets dry tumbled.

As far as the 1/8 MOA stuff goes, there are several things I do (or don't do) with my precison brass that each represent a small improvement in group size. Some (like flash hole deburring and the way I sort the brass) are one-time operations, others (like trimming) are intermittent, and some things I do every time. It adds up.

Why is dirty brass more accurate than shiny brass?
Do you anneal if so how often?
How clean does the cement mixer get the brass? Jerry Miculek does his bulk this way also. Yes the pins are a pain!
What's your brass sorting regiment?
Thank you

 

[LuvDog]

I actually stopped cleaning the brass for precision rifle ammo. If the necks get dirty I'll wipe them down with a little Ballistol after they're loaded. I wet tumble my bulk pistol and rifle brass without pins in one of these.

The rest gets dry tumbled.

As far as the 1/8 MOA stuff goes, there are several things I do (or don't do) with my precison brass that each represent a small improvement in group size. Some (like flash hole deburring and the way I sort the brass) are one-time operations, others (like trimming) are intermittent, and some things I do every time. It adds up.

I'm sure you have your data and did your analysis... so now I'm curious - what about dirty brass makes it more precise?

 

[DW357]

I'm sure you have your data and did your analysis... so now I'm curious - what about dirty brass makes it more precise?

Jim will chime in but I seem to recall that it was a neck tension/lube thing, where the small amounts of dust/fouling in the casemouth/neck acts as a lube for better for consistent tension???

Edit: Found Jim's post from 2016:

I haven't seen any studies either, but my experience leads me to believe the opposite is true.

I'm not disagreeing that absolute consistency is ideal, it's just that I think brass that is "perfectly shiny" on the inside is less consistent than brass that isn't.

I base this on shooting hundreds of groups with rifle ammo using brass that was wet-tumbled with stainless pins - as perfectly shiny as you're going to get on the inside - versus brass that was dry-tumbled and consistently clean, but not as perfectly shiny inside as the wet tumbled brass.

The dry tumbled brass shoots slightly better groups.

My guess is that the small but consistent amount of residual soot inside the necks of the dry tumbled cases acts as a sort of solid "lube" between the bullet and the case, resulting in a more consistent release of the bullet upon firing.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Why is dirty brass more accurate than shiny brass?
Do you anneal if so how often?
How clean does the cement mixer get the brass? Jerry Miculek does his bulk this way also. Yes the pins are a pain!
What's your brass sorting regiment?
Thank you

1. My theory is that the soot left inside the neck acts as a sort of dry lube that makes bullet pull more consistent. If anyone has a better theory, I'm all ears.
2. Not for precision rounds. I anneal rifle brass for calibers where I don't have a big supply of brass (like 303 Brit).
3. Clean enough
4. I sort out anything that's non-concentric more than 0.001"

 

[LuvDog]

I guess one way to test this is to take a sample of dirty cases and just clean out the inside neck area and see if that impacts precision.

I wonder if it's something in the water/detergent/wax/lemishine that is being left inside the case when it dries? Maybe some salt/mineral that causes the powder to burn differently? or maybe there was some residual moisture left in the case.

 

[akma]

1. My theory is that the soot left inside the neck acts as a sort of dry lube that makes bullet pull more consistent. If anyone has a better theory, I'm all ears.
2. Not for precision rounds. I anneal rifle brass for calibers where I don't have a big supply of brass (like 303 Brit).
3. Clean enough
4. I sort out anything that's non-concentric more than 0.001"

1. Have you tested moly coated bullets?
2. Have you found annealing to effect accuracy? I would think 3-4 reloads before the neck splits. Brass gets work hardened every time it's resized is there any inconsistency in neck tension?
4. No weighing of cases or checking of volume?

 

[vicorjh]

I guess one way to test this is to take a sample of dirty cases and just clean out the inside neck area and see if that impacts precision.

Galling, stiction, 'cold welding'. Super clean necks may cause variations on the apparent neck tension potentially leading to pressure variation. So, yes, that experiment would be interesting and specific.

I clean my brass using pins but I also don't run it for hours. I can get pretty good SD below 10 and extreme spread below 20 on reloads if I'm paying attention.

 

[citoriguy]

I’ve had one of these for about 18 months after using a dry tumbler, and I feel it’s much easier to use, but that’s pretty subjective. I like being able to deprime and then clean, but that’s not that big of a deal.

It’s taken all the .380ACP, 9mm, 45ACP, 5.56, .30-06, and .308 I’ve thrown at it and it keeps humming. Dawn dish soap and Lemishine is all use and the brass looks great. A couple hours in the tumbler and then 20-30 minutes at 170 degrees in the oven (lowest I can go) and I’m done with that portion of reloading. Using the pins really cleans up the inside of the brass.

 

[Smokewagon]

Galling, stiction, 'cold welding'. Super clean necks may cause variations on the apparent neck tension potentially leading to pressure variation. So, yes, that experiment would be interesting and specific.

I clean my brass using pins but I also don't run it for hours. I can get pretty good SD below 10 and extreme spread below 20 on reloads if I'm paying attention.

I solved the galling/friction issue from super clean brass that you get with wet tumbling with pins by using car wash and wax instead of plain soap. Tablespoon of it in my tumbler and it seems to leave just enough of a film on it that everything runs smooth with no issues. Not so much it leaves any residue on my press either.

 

[eisenhow]

I solved the galling/friction issue from super clean brass that you get with wet tumbling with pins by using car wash and wax instead of plain soap. Tablespoon of it in my tumbler and it seems to leave just enough of a film on it that everything runs smooth with no issues. Not so much it leaves any residue on my press either.

How many gallons of water for the 1 tablespoon?
How hard or soft is your water?
I switched to ~1 TBL of Armor-all Wash & Wax / gallon of water and I am still having sticking issues. My water is relatively hard so when I rinse I don't think I'm getting much of a film.

 

[Gusp]

You might try a final rinse with distilled water or water from a dehumidifier.

 

[Mike 53]

Might also tumble in corn for awhile...

 

[slipknot]

1. My theory is that the soot left inside the neck acts as a sort of dry lube that makes bullet pull more consistent. If anyone has a better theory, I'm all ears.
2. Not for precision rounds. I anneal rifle brass for calibers where I don't have a big supply of brass (like 303 Brit).
3. Clean enough
4. I sort out anything that's non-concentric more than 0.001"

I have heard of this soot providing a barrier and some lube before but I am not convinced enough of it is left after cob tumbling and brushing the necks before seating.

I anneal my PRS match brass before every resizing/loading and I feel that helps more with neck tension then left over soot will. I did a batch without wet tumbling and simply wiped the outside of the case only after depriming and did not see much of a difference. The most I shoot has been 1150 yards though.
I wet tumble with a Thumbler for only 15-20 minutes,rinse, dry off in a towel and either let sit or stick in oven on low heat for a bit to get moisture out of the inside, then anneal, size, brush neck, then prime, powder and then seat bullet after dipping it into Imperial dry lube. It only takes a couple seconds to dip a bullet on it's way to the case. This I believe helps with any cold bonding if the ammo sits too long. I get the feeling factory ammo has some kind of barrier between the case and the projectile to reduce cold welding. Anyway I get decent SD with this now.

 

[Smokewagon]

How many gallons of water for the 1 tablespoon?
How hard or soft is your water?
I switched to ~1 TBL of Armor-all Wash & Wax / gallon of water and I am still having sticking issues. My water is relatively hard so when I rinse I don't think I'm getting much of a film.

However much water is in a 7L Frankford Arsenal wet tumbler with 7 lbs of pins and 7lbs of brass(I think, could be 6 and 6, i'd have to check since I haven't wet tumbled since i moved in June of last year). Water is not hard. I also use a .32 auto case of lemishine. IF your water is hard you may need more lemishine or soap or both.

 

[Mike 53]

Really I think MY whole issue with wet tumbling is...I don't have a sink in the basement. If I did, I likely would use it. For sure, nothing cleans better. As it is, for me, it's a pain in the ass...
So the only time it's used is for dirty range stuff...
And if anyone gets a new one, be sure to thoroughly clean the pins alone before you add brass.
-Mike

 

[jbert27]

Mine works great. Not going back to the grit.

 

[HarryPottar]

I have the Franklin Wet Tumbler and the Franklin Brass Dryer (dehydrator).
It will do either 2,000 9mm or 1,000 223 at a time.

I can dry tumble with normal media or wet tumble, best of both worlds.

Brass cleanliness matters:

223: I dry tumble first in the Franklin Wet Tumbler, lube and run through a Dillon 650 with a Dillon 1500 trimmer.
First unit: de-primmer
Second Unit: Swage Unit where primmer punch is, small wifi camera on top to inspect swaged case.
third unit: sizer
fourth unit: Dillion 1500 trimmer

After inspection I wet tumble with pins to take off the lube and deburr the case mouths.
Drain and then run through Franklin Brass Dryer. Normally they will collect in a large bin and dry off weeks before I need to reload them

Second pass through Dillon is to prime, powder and bullet seat.

Odd times I will run then through an annealer after the first dry tumble.

My 308's I just dry tumble and a single stage press and baby more.

9mm I just dry tumble as well.

I don't see any difference in the accuracy, most likely thats me not the ammo.

I prefer my women to shower and my brass to be clean, but thats just me.

harry

 

[Smokewagon]

Mine works great. Not going back to the grit.

I probably could now, but wet tumbling works so well for me I don't think I want to go back. When I got back into i lived in an apartment, dusty dry tumbling just didn't work, no matter what i did. I tried dryer sheets, drop of brass polish, etc. Still too dusty. Bought a HF dual rock tumbler a pound of pins and away I went. Wife started shooting a bunch, and the dual tumbler just wouldn't cut it anymore.

 

[EddieZoom]

Giving this thread a bump/update. Santa brought me the Franklin Arsenal wet tumbler and after one batch of cleaning all I can say is....WOW !!! I've seen the pics and watched the videos of shiny brass....but DAMN....it is impressive !!!!

Shouldn't have held out so long....

 

[Road_Clam]

Another solid +1 for the FA wet tumble. Disgusting muddy fired range brass comes out looking like absolutely BRAND NEW with some Dawn dishwashing soap and some Lemishine . You can find Lemishine at Home Depot . This was all done in one cleaning tumble session :

 

[Broc]

Giving this thread a bump/update. Santa brought me the Franklin Arsenal wet tumbler and after one batch of cleaning all I can say is....WOW !!! I've seen the pics and watched the videos of shiny brass....but DAMN....it is impressive !!!!

Shouldn't have held out so long....

And you don't need a lot of time.

I got mine down to 20 minutes. Brass comes out nice and clean.

 

[Taipan01]

I've tried wet tumbling a couple times. I didn't think it made much of a difference over dry. I pop primers and hit the pockets quickly with a pocket cleaner mounted on a Hornady trio before either so.. I used a HF dual rock tumbler. Each can holds 3 lbs, 1lb of media, 2lbs of shells. The media is .041 X .265 steel pins from Buffalo bore with the lemi-shine mixture. A level 1/2 cup = 1lb of pins. I separated using a screen strainer. As I said, I can't really see a difference but if I were to go wet and as far as drying goes, lots of goto reloading companies now make dryers for wet tumbling. I didn't look at many brands but Lyman makes one for $80.00 that does 1,000 5.56 or 2,000 9mm in a batch

 

[EddieZoom]

I've tried wet tumbling a couple times. I didn't think it made much of a difference over dry. I pop primers and hit the pockets quickly with a pocket cleaner mounted on a Hornady trio before either so.. I used a HF dual rock tumbler. Each can holds 3 lbs, 1lb of media, 2lbs of shells. The media is .041 X .265 steel pins from Buffalo bore with the lemi-shine mixture. A level 1/2 cup = 1lb of pins. I separated using a screen strainer. As I said, I can't really see a difference but if I were to go wet and as far as drying goes, lots of goto reloading companies now make dryers for wet tumbling. I didn't look at many brands but Lyman makes one for $80.00 that does 1,000 5.56 or 2,000 9mm in a batch

I now own the Franklin wet tumbler and my experience couldn't be more different....the results are just spectacular. I've only done 3 or 4 batches but it's not nearly the PITA that I thought it was. Never going back...