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Franklin Armory Introduces Short Barrel ‘Firearm’ With Standard AR Stock and ATF Approval*
- Thread starter mikeyp
- Start date
Perhaps it's non-rifled, but has a choke as the muzzle device? I don't recognize it, but it could be to give it some spin so it isn't just pushing out rounds ..like a crap rail gun made without an electromagnetic field.
This is really interesting, i saw this somewhere else and started digging.
The current theory:
The definition of a machine gun is "For purposes of federal law, a machine gun is defined as: [A]ny weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manually reloading, by a single function of the trigger."
definition of a rifle: "The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger."
(omitting the SBR definition, as its a rifle, but short barrell)
Here we go:
This has a binary trigger, therefore, ITs not a machine gun, because there is no more than a single short per a trigger action. However its also not a rifle as there is 2 shots per a trigger pull.
Order soon, this will get sh1tcanned quickly. (im sure its still not MA ok - per FAQ of course)
More speculation based on above:
1) the trigger only fires on release of the tirgger.
2) 2 trigger pulls required to fire 1 round. (less likely)
The current theory:
The definition of a machine gun is "For purposes of federal law, a machine gun is defined as: [A]ny weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manually reloading, by a single function of the trigger."
definition of a rifle: "The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger."
(omitting the SBR definition, as its a rifle, but short barrell)
Here we go:
This has a binary trigger, therefore, ITs not a machine gun, because there is no more than a single short per a trigger action. However its also not a rifle as there is 2 shots per a trigger pull.
Order soon, this will get sh1tcanned quickly. (im sure its still not MA ok - per FAQ of course)
More speculation based on above:
1) the trigger only fires on release of the tirgger.
2) 2 trigger pulls required to fire 1 round. (less likely)
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Noreaster... If it does end up being a binary trigger, then I would have to believe that it would be illegal to fire it in semi-automatic as that makes it a SBR. To shoot this "firearm" it would have to permanently be a binary trigger with no semi auto setting.
Which if somebody was accidentally shot during the trigger release would open Franklin Armory to lawsuits.
EDIT: Just removed some unnecessary information. Nothing to see here folks.
Which if somebody was accidentally shot during the trigger release would open Franklin Armory to lawsuits.
EDIT: Just removed some unnecessary information. Nothing to see here folks.
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CrackPot
NES Member
Based on what they wrote unrifled appears to be the federal loophole. No help in MA as this will qualify as a firearm and both be subject to the EOPs compliance list, the AG compliance and like falls out as still an AW.
Good creativity for almost free America.
Good creativity for almost free America.
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Antique, pinfire rifle? Perhaps a "Florbert"... watch for one in the classifieds.
Seems like this has blown up the online gun community over the last 24 hours.
It has been confirmed by several individuals who contacted Franklin Armory that the barrel is not smoothbore. I suspect this rules out any weird rifling alternatives.
The two leading theories from what I've read are:
A. This firearm has a niche classification that it is neither a rifle nor a machinegun (as stated by Noreaster78). So far, this seems to make the most sense to me. This would be accomplished technically with purely a binary/safe trigger, possibly with a "semi" feature where the rifle fires on release only, not pull.
B. The overall length is greater than 26". I'm not an SBR expert. Some state that if a rifle has a barrel <16" but an OAL > 26" when extended it is not an SBR. I have not been able to find ATF terminology that confirms this theory. Nor can I confirm that OAL is determined when the stock is extended.
......................................................................................................................................................................................................
So, fellow Ma**h***s, what line of our laws strictly prohibits this from our ownership? **I haven't bought a semi-auto rifle in MA post-Healey, forgive me if I miss something.
1. If transferred as a firearm, it is not a rifle...nor an SBR. Firearms can still be transferred to MA residents by an FFL.
2. Binary triggers are not illegal (right?)
3. If this is accomplished on a NFA level per option A, then in MA would this still be classified as "semiautomatic" per MA law:
(Section 121. ) ...''Semiautomatic'', capable of utilizing a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and requiring a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge."
This is likely a stretch since a fire on release trigger still requires the trigger to be pulled, but if it were purely a binary trigger...then it would not be semiautomatic. Which leads to...
4. If Point 3 is true... then is this compliant to MA AWB? Is it restricted by the MA AWB? H.R 4296 does not define the term semiautomatic. However, it does list the models and copies component, where Healey made her claims too. But a manual copy of the AR-15 is MA compliant....so would a binary AR-15 be MA compliant? Or alternatively, perform this same approach to a platform that passes the copy test...such as a SCAR (would have to not be registered as a rifle during manufacturing)?
......................................................................................................................................................................................................
Honestly, I'll be equally happy if we rule it out. I've been thinking about this non-stop for 24 hours. To clarify, I have almost no interest in owning a binary trigger. I think the concept is unpractical and a waste of ammo, but I like the idea of owning an SBR style rifle and would consider a binary trigger if it allowed that. Especially if this has no restrictions for traveling across state lines?!
It has been confirmed by several individuals who contacted Franklin Armory that the barrel is not smoothbore. I suspect this rules out any weird rifling alternatives.
The two leading theories from what I've read are:
A. This firearm has a niche classification that it is neither a rifle nor a machinegun (as stated by Noreaster78). So far, this seems to make the most sense to me. This would be accomplished technically with purely a binary/safe trigger, possibly with a "semi" feature where the rifle fires on release only, not pull.
B. The overall length is greater than 26". I'm not an SBR expert. Some state that if a rifle has a barrel <16" but an OAL > 26" when extended it is not an SBR. I have not been able to find ATF terminology that confirms this theory. Nor can I confirm that OAL is determined when the stock is extended.
......................................................................................................................................................................................................
So, fellow Ma**h***s, what line of our laws strictly prohibits this from our ownership? **I haven't bought a semi-auto rifle in MA post-Healey, forgive me if I miss something.
1. If transferred as a firearm, it is not a rifle...nor an SBR. Firearms can still be transferred to MA residents by an FFL.
2. Binary triggers are not illegal (right?)
3. If this is accomplished on a NFA level per option A, then in MA would this still be classified as "semiautomatic" per MA law:
(Section 121. ) ...''Semiautomatic'', capable of utilizing a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and requiring a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge."
This is likely a stretch since a fire on release trigger still requires the trigger to be pulled, but if it were purely a binary trigger...then it would not be semiautomatic. Which leads to...
4. If Point 3 is true... then is this compliant to MA AWB? Is it restricted by the MA AWB? H.R 4296 does not define the term semiautomatic. However, it does list the models and copies component, where Healey made her claims too. But a manual copy of the AR-15 is MA compliant....so would a binary AR-15 be MA compliant? Or alternatively, perform this same approach to a platform that passes the copy test...such as a SCAR (would have to not be registered as a rifle during manufacturing)?
......................................................................................................................................................................................................
Honestly, I'll be equally happy if we rule it out. I've been thinking about this non-stop for 24 hours. To clarify, I have almost no interest in owning a binary trigger. I think the concept is unpractical and a waste of ammo, but I like the idea of owning an SBR style rifle and would consider a binary trigger if it allowed that. Especially if this has no restrictions for traveling across state lines?!
Forgive me for being obtuse, but I'm struggling to find anything to get excited about in the press release.
Scaling off the photo (violating the "Never scale from the drawings!" rule I learned the first week of my first real job), it's 24 3/4" long collapsed with an 8 2/3" LOP. The stock opens up 3 1/3", so LOP can run out to 12" with the whole package ending up being just over 28" long. So it's a bit bigger than some bullpups that you can get, but with a shorter barrel (and the associated velocity loss) and a non-normal shooting position for many folks. Sure, it's an SBR you can theoretically save $200 on, but is it any fun to shoot?
Or have I just missed the boat completely about what would be interesting about this??
Scaling off the photo (violating the "Never scale from the drawings!" rule I learned the first week of my first real job), it's 24 3/4" long collapsed with an 8 2/3" LOP. The stock opens up 3 1/3", so LOP can run out to 12" with the whole package ending up being just over 28" long. So it's a bit bigger than some bullpups that you can get, but with a shorter barrel (and the associated velocity loss) and a non-normal shooting position for many folks. Sure, it's an SBR you can theoretically save $200 on, but is it any fun to shoot?
Or have I just missed the boat completely about what would be interesting about this??
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I believe the latest evolution of the "make sh@t up as we go and ban everything" is that an SBR is not a rifle in MASS and therefor falls in a classification of "weapon" ( or was it firearm?). Therefore needs to be on the EOPS list and all other lists just like a handgun.
Makes perfect sense, doesn't it.
No. Under MA law, this is a "firearm" which in MA parlance is what the rest of the world calls a "handgun".
Unless it ends up on one of the EOPS Approved Rosters, and gets the OK from the AG, MA dealers can't legally transfer it.
eboos
NES Member
Watch Oprah.
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Doesn't matter, it's something that's going to be in the next big Hollywood movie and people are going to see this gun shooting wicked fast and they be like, "Oh, gotta git me one o those!"
It will sell and make money and it probably is just a factory binary trigger AR.
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Now I'm wondering if maybe there could be a trigger in pump shotguns that, after firing and while still holding the trigger back, you could work the pump and get another shell in then release the trigger to fire again.
If that were possible, it wouldn't be a shotgun because the legal definition of a shotgun and the "single pull of the trigger" is the same as a rifle. Could mean that a 12 inch barrel riot gun with a buttstock could be legal.
If that were possible, it wouldn't be a shotgun because the legal definition of a shotgun and the "single pull of the trigger" is the same as a rifle. Could mean that a 12 inch barrel riot gun with a buttstock could be legal.
eboos
NES Member
Weren't Ithaca pump shotguns like that?
There were a bunch of shotguns that worked this way.
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That's slamfiring, but I guess it would the same thing when you think about it.
E.Stoner
NES Member
If hollywood representation of guns was at all a driving force in gun sales. Rifles and handguns would ship without any sort of sights or optics and you would either never miss or always miss.
This is just an example of lets try to create guns that fill in every little bit of wiggle room in the interpretation of the law. Sometimes you get some interesting concepts like a shockwave that could have some utility other times you get some dead end garbage
It's like a California AR, the effort is commendable but the result is a garbage-frankengun that is pretty much antithetical to the original design requirements of the firearm and you'll end up getting kiltinthestreet trying to reload with some stripper-mag-loader-horseshit.
You get to an end run around an unconstitutional law: cool
You save 200 dollars: I got it
You end up with a shitty "not-rifle" that has almost zero benefits of the .223/AR platform: fully retarded
If you are looking looking for an AR probably the two most important items are a good barrel and a good trigger. This has neither.
I cant wait to see how this performs ballistically, my guess is not good. Probably makes a real loud noise and then spits out a bullet like a keyholing-corkscrew that drops out of the air like wet blanet after 100 yards. I need this gun like I need an butthole on my elbow or a muzzleloader with a can welded on the end of it.
Sorry to be a boner killer.
I'd gladly pay $400 NOT to be in any database or file papers to bring it from MA to NH for a shoot. NFA is a royal pain in the ass.
E.Stoner
NES Member
Ok, fair enough. I am still not convinced that this is a firearm worth owning period.
We are all on lists.
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Jesus man, I never said I was going to buy the gun or that I liked it, I said that it doesn't matter if this gun is shitty because the people who will buy it are the video gamer wannabe Call of Duty Black Ops/SEAL Team 6 members and they'll have a totally tacticool pseudo machine gun that's legal and it'll make their tiny dicks hard.If hollywood representation of guns was at all a driving force in gun sales. Rifles and handguns would ship without any sort of sights or optics and you would either never miss or always miss.
This is just an example of lets try to create guns that fill in every little bit of wiggle room in the interpretation of the law. Sometimes you get some interesting concepts like a shockwave that could have some utility other times you get some dead end garbage
It's like a California AR, the effort is commendable but the result is a garbage-frankengun that is pretty much antithetical to the original design requirements of the firearm and you'll end up getting kiltinthestreet trying to reload with some stripper-mag-loader-horseshit.
You get to an end run around an unconstitutional law: cool
You save 200 dollars: I got it
You end up with a shitty "not-rifle" that has almost zero benefits of the .223/AR platform: fully retarded
If you are looking looking for an AR probably the two most important items are a good barrel and a good trigger. This has neither.
I cant wait to see how this performs ballistically, my guess is not good. Probably makes a real loud noise and then spits out a bullet like a keyholing-corkscrew that drops out of the air like wet blanet after 100 yards. I need this gun like I need an butthole on my elbow or a muzzleloader with a can welded on the end of it.
Sorry to be a boner killer.
Franklin Armory is a company and a business and they're making something that's going to sell and make them money.
What I like most about this gun is it skirts around the legal definition of rifle and means it can have any length barrel. I have no use for an SBR other than a 9mm SBR with a 10 inch barrel, so I have no interest in the gun itself.
What I do have great interest in is a non-NFA Short Barrel Shotgun with a buttstock. Hopefully somebody will crank one of those out and I'm not talking about the Shockwave with a pistol brace.
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