Ruger lcr
27 minutes in he discussed and tests 9mm for crimp jump
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eIsy9gg1S58&t=1701s
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For all those who are considering a revolver
- Thread starter snubnose
- Start date
27 minutes in he discussed and tests 9mm for crimp jump
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eIsy9gg1S58&t=1701s
Bullet Creep: Federal 9mm Luger 115grain FMJ - no powder in cartridge
Here's an NES user encountering crimp jump with the same firearm.
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IMHO, crimp jump is an ammo quality issue, not a firearm issue. In rounds that headspace off the case mouth, there might be too little neck tension for one reason or another. Might also be more common with plated bullets, especially if you overdo the taper crimp, hence more of a practice range issue than a SD reliability issue. The 9mm case thickens so setback might not be a problem with the same ammo. I guess if it doesn't manifest in a semi-auto, a manufacturer might not know they're doing it.
If I had a 9mm revolver, especially a small, light one, I'd just shoot my defensive ammo enough to be confident about it.
BTW, seen reports of crimp jump with .357 magnum range ammo in Ruger LCRs. Lots of factory stuff, e.g. Armscor, Herters, doesn't appear to be roll crimped. Might be plated bullets more than jacketed as well, but I'm not sure.
If I had a 9mm revolver, especially a small, light one, I'd just shoot my defensive ammo enough to be confident about it.
BTW, seen reports of crimp jump with .357 magnum range ammo in Ruger LCRs. Lots of factory stuff, e.g. Armscor, Herters, doesn't appear to be roll crimped. Might be plated bullets more than jacketed as well, but I'm not sure.
Randy Lahey
NES Member
Okay, so who can do a good moonclip conversion around here? (Mass.)
Something was off with the 38. Those numbers are usually over 900 ft per second. Those speeds seem more inline with 158gr bullets.
Shooting 38 out of the 357 will cause more pressure loss.
Everyone knows the 9mm has more power than 38. The question then becomes why a revolver at all. You wan't to bet your life on not having crimp jump. Also you need to discuss the recoil of the 9mm revolver vs 38.
Shooting 38 out of the 357 will cause more pressure loss.
Everyone knows the 9mm has more power than 38. The question then becomes why a revolver at all. You wan't to bet your life on not having crimp jump. Also you need to discuss the recoil of the 9mm revolver vs 38.
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The mild recoil of the 9mm is fine for women and Europeans.
Remember, the 2nd Amendment was written by men for men and if you aren't man enough to handle a man sized round then maybe you shouldn't own a gun at all.
Remember, the 2nd Amendment was written by men for men and if you aren't man enough to handle a man sized round then maybe you shouldn't own a gun at all.
Bmcl322
NES Member
"Men shouldn't waste their time with a Pop gun like this, but Women and Europeans may appreciate the lighter kick." @ 1:42 mark
Dude, that quote made my night!! Too funny!!
I read this in the voice of Bullet tooth Tony, from Snatch.
“Mine says, Desert Eagle, point 5-0”
Should have put that at the end, it would have been gold!
fencer
NES Member
That was hilarious. I love the fake 70's format.
I love revolvers and shoot them better, but hate snubbies.
My PM9 conceals ridiculously well and with a spare mag, gives me 14 rounds of 9mm at the same weight as an Air Weight. The barrel is 1/2" longer and it is very accurate and reliable.
I really don't like 380. It is a lot better than it used to be, with more ammo options, but I feel a lot more comfortable with 9mm.
38ExtraSpecial
NES Member
I agree that the 9 will have less velocity loss than a 38 out of a snub.
However the 38 has a whole wide range of bullets to choose from from 110 to 180 which is a benefit in my eyes.
Energy isn’t the be all end all though.
I really do love Paul Harrels videos and many other people have compared a 40 to a 45 and a 9 to a 40 and all that jazz.
Usually you’re working with the max bullet weight for one cartridge and almost the lightest for the other cartridge to keep them “fair” or the lightest in one to the lightest in the other etc. none of which is a good comparison of performance.
They end up tilting the bias toward one cartridge or another.
Of course the gun you carry is better than the one you left at home and shot placement is the be all end all considering 99% of the cartridges and ammo we compare is modern and would pass the FBI test for penetration which is the most important part of getting to the vitals. Expansion being secondary to proper penetration.
That being said I think the bigger isn’t isn’t which cartridge retains more velocity or which one has a better bullet selection. It’s which one is loaded with the PROPER bullet for the snub nose application.
LuckyGunner does explain this in some videos and their massive lab about the 38 special and 357 testing. They do not show results for 9mm in a snub though.
Seems to me most manufacturers are producing and testing 9mm for proper expansion from a 4”-5” gun.
I’m wondering which one has the edge with having proper bullets for the platform. Even if the 9 retains more velocity is the bullet going to expand at 300fps slower than its intended to impact at.
It’s something that hunters and rifle shooters consider all the time. Especially hand loaders.
You could get a 168 grain bullet that shoot accurately from a 308 and would kill a whitetail well at 100 yards. Push it to max velocities out of a 300 RUM and it’s a grenade.
The reverse is true. Winchester sold dual bond ammo in 454 Casull. There was talk about people pulling bullets and using them in 45 Colt for blackhawks. It was found that they would not reliably expand at the lower velocities. Same for dedicated 458 win mag bullets in a 45/70. Or a 357 hollow point pushed 400 FPS faster through a lever gun. It won’t perform as advertised. The list goes on.
Bullets are built to work in a certain velocity range. Even though a cartridge retains more velocity is it enough to get the job done?
IWBA Wound Ballistics Review - Google Drive
Here is some awesome info. In depth terminal ballistic testing which is just about everything we base our modern testing off. The good the bad the ugly. Proper testing and debunking of myths.
There are some sections on exactly what we’re discussing. Bullets being pushed too fast or not fast enough rendering a supposed superior cartridge ineffective.
There is a lotto read but it’s awesome stuff.
Also there is some good info denouncing the use of certain ammo which is still in use today when here have been better choices available for decades. Like the 168 match king in police sniper work.
However the 38 has a whole wide range of bullets to choose from from 110 to 180 which is a benefit in my eyes.
Energy isn’t the be all end all though.
I really do love Paul Harrels videos and many other people have compared a 40 to a 45 and a 9 to a 40 and all that jazz.
Usually you’re working with the max bullet weight for one cartridge and almost the lightest for the other cartridge to keep them “fair” or the lightest in one to the lightest in the other etc. none of which is a good comparison of performance.
They end up tilting the bias toward one cartridge or another.
Of course the gun you carry is better than the one you left at home and shot placement is the be all end all considering 99% of the cartridges and ammo we compare is modern and would pass the FBI test for penetration which is the most important part of getting to the vitals. Expansion being secondary to proper penetration.
That being said I think the bigger isn’t isn’t which cartridge retains more velocity or which one has a better bullet selection. It’s which one is loaded with the PROPER bullet for the snub nose application.
LuckyGunner does explain this in some videos and their massive lab about the 38 special and 357 testing. They do not show results for 9mm in a snub though.
Seems to me most manufacturers are producing and testing 9mm for proper expansion from a 4”-5” gun.
I’m wondering which one has the edge with having proper bullets for the platform. Even if the 9 retains more velocity is the bullet going to expand at 300fps slower than its intended to impact at.
It’s something that hunters and rifle shooters consider all the time. Especially hand loaders.
You could get a 168 grain bullet that shoot accurately from a 308 and would kill a whitetail well at 100 yards. Push it to max velocities out of a 300 RUM and it’s a grenade.
The reverse is true. Winchester sold dual bond ammo in 454 Casull. There was talk about people pulling bullets and using them in 45 Colt for blackhawks. It was found that they would not reliably expand at the lower velocities. Same for dedicated 458 win mag bullets in a 45/70. Or a 357 hollow point pushed 400 FPS faster through a lever gun. It won’t perform as advertised. The list goes on.
Bullets are built to work in a certain velocity range. Even though a cartridge retains more velocity is it enough to get the job done?
IWBA Wound Ballistics Review - Google Drive
Here is some awesome info. In depth terminal ballistic testing which is just about everything we base our modern testing off. The good the bad the ugly. Proper testing and debunking of myths.
There are some sections on exactly what we’re discussing. Bullets being pushed too fast or not fast enough rendering a supposed superior cartridge ineffective.
There is a lotto read but it’s awesome stuff.
Also there is some good info denouncing the use of certain ammo which is still in use today when here have been better choices available for decades. Like the 168 match king in police sniper work.
Varmint
NES Member
That doesn't sound very statistically significant.
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I like the Buffalo Bore FBI load. About 1050fps from a snubby.
Soft lead hollow point.
But after a breakfast of Wheaties the 1911 is comforting.
Soft lead hollow point.
But after a breakfast of Wheaties the 1911 is comforting.
Awww man, how did Paul get Fudd status? What dumb thing did he do?
Yep. Clocked and locked.
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Jttgspring
NES Member
Jump crimp, again for civilian use (very short range, very very few rounds fired-if any at all and its all over in just a few seconds) this phenomena, if you can duplicate it, is the biggest non issue in the cc world.
Ah well I had a 9mm LCR and on one range session, I managed to dislodge the last two bullet heads, every time. Granted it was cheap range ammo. But it happened, I witnessed it and in turn sold the gun. 9mm is not crimped, and the recoil in a stubby goes into the frame/your hand, which in turn can, and in my case, did, cause crimp jump. As stated it it was with cheap bulk ammo. Also it did happen with better quality ammo, (I used a micrometer to measure) as was noted in Harrell’s video, the bullets stayed in the casing, but still moved. I’d not be so quick to dismiss this as a non issue.
Ah well I had a 9mm LCR and on one range session, I managed to dislodge the last two bullet heads, every time. Granted it was cheap range ammo. But it happened, I witnessed it and in turn sold the gun. 9mm is not crimped, and the recoil in a stubby goes into the frame/your hand, which in turn can, and in my case, did, cause crimp jump. As stated it it was with cheap bulk ammo. Also it did happen with better quality ammo, (I used a micrometer to measure) as was noted in Harrell’s video, the bullets stayed in the casing, but still moved. I’d not be so quick to dismiss this as a non issue.
The LCR 9mm has been intriguing for a while now, but crimp jump and it’s weight have been what help me back. For 2 oz more I can carry my 9mm shield which is thinner and holds 3-4 more shots. Only problem is that the shield fits poorly in a pocket. I feel like I really need a real pocket gun for that.
Retired-LEO
NES Member
The caliber and capacity do not matter, if your not actually carrying it.
Find a pistol or revolver small enough that you will actually carry it daily and carry it.
Find a pistol or revolver small enough that you will actually carry it daily and carry it.
Revolvers are the best choice for a person that doesn't shoot alot or has much in the gun handling dept. Five rounds that have pretty much 100% chance of all going bang beats out high cap or low cap auto with a FTF probably caused by weak grip in a stress situation.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
1919FAN, exactly and your comment about grip should be noted by everyone who is concerned about the elusive 'crimp' issue.
If it were NOT for the reviews that also find no failure to fire due to a crimper I would question whether or not the moonie might be a contributing factor. I post this as we have never ever used the clips in our lcr 9, and the fact that this revolver will fire perfectly without the clip was the second biggest reason why we have them.
All civilians, and this is critical to my position, would be well served by the revolver for self defense-whether the .38, .357 , 9mm or even the 'lowly' .22 though I do think the wmr is a much better choice than the lr; the revolver with regard to operation/maint really is idiot proof.
Professionals need more, we do not-but again carry anything you wish, even that semi which isn't designed to handle regularly the MASSIVE (not) pressure difference between standard and +p ammo.
If it were NOT for the reviews that also find no failure to fire due to a crimper I would question whether or not the moonie might be a contributing factor. I post this as we have never ever used the clips in our lcr 9, and the fact that this revolver will fire perfectly without the clip was the second biggest reason why we have them.
All civilians, and this is critical to my position, would be well served by the revolver for self defense-whether the .38, .357 , 9mm or even the 'lowly' .22 though I do think the wmr is a much better choice than the lr; the revolver with regard to operation/maint really is idiot proof.
Professionals need more, we do not-but again carry anything you wish, even that semi which isn't designed to handle regularly the MASSIVE (not) pressure difference between standard and +p ammo.
Never thought about that before. Just thinking about it... Without moon clips, when a round goes off, the casing slams against the recoil shield. The other rounds, however, are only affected by the movement of the gun. With a moon clip, at least the adjacent rounds would be backed into the recoil shield to some extent along with the casing of the round that just fired. The rounds on the opposite side of the cylinder might be spared by the moon clip bending slightly. Anyway, as the recoil kicks in, the rounds would be pulled back the other way as without moon clips. The bullets are going to want to be stationary during all of this, so the movement of the clip backwards into the recoil shield when firing might have an additional pulling effect on the bullets. Slamming into the recoil shield would have the opposite effect, but the pulling, pushing, and then pulling again might have more of a loosening effect, tending to overcome friction between the casing and the bullet, than just the normal pulling of the recoil on an unclipped round in another charge hole. Of course this doesn't quantify anything. The added effect might be insignificant. Furthermore, with moon clips there's no chance of sending a round through more recoil cycles than there are charge holes (minus one for the round itself)...unless you go out of your way to make that happen.
Incidentally, I came across this amazing video. You can see the other cases move during firing in this unclipped situation. Notice how the muzzle rise begins before the bullet leaves the barrel.
A LOT of people are currently taking a dirt nap thanks to a .38 special fired out of a snub nose revolver. Definitely proven to work. Sure, plenty of other calibers and pistols hit harder. But the .38 will get the job done if you are handy with your pistol.
