Patriot
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Fonda, Now Clinton - What a Disgrace!
- Thread starter Patriot
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![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
From what I remember from a History channel special that at one point the US could have dealt with and backed Ho Chi Mihn but chose the other guy. Not sure if it was true but it was a green beret who said at one point we (the US) would have to deal with him so best to back him. We didnt, the Soviets did and the rest is pretty much history.
Again, not sure how accurate it is though.
-Brian
Again, not sure how accurate it is though.
-Brian
After WWII, Truman had to deal with a lot of thing he never expected having to confront. Among them was how we should deal with the colonies (or former colonies) of our allies, particularly those of France. There was a strong difference of opinion about "French Indo-China" in particular, with the OSS on one side and the State Department on the other. The career diplomats in state insisted that France was entitled to take back control, with US help if necessary. The OSS, which had first-hand knowledge of the way things were in SE Asia, insisted that after their experience fighting the Japanese without any French help, the Vietnamese would never accept return to French control, regardless of any US involvement. They said that we should back Ho Chi Minh, who was a strong nationalist. According to them, Ho was a communist in name only (primarily because the communists were the only group in France who were opposed to French colonialism), but was really just a Vietnamese nationalist who had read a lot of Thomas Jefferson and was more of a Jeffersonian democrat than anything. The OSS believed that France was in no position to demand anything, and that with US support Ho and Vietnam would become a strong US ally in the region.
Because Elinore Roosevelt insisted that Franklin's health was a private matter, and neither the country nor the vice president had any business being informed that doctors had told them he would never survive a fourth term, Truman was completely blindsided by events, and forced to deal with Stalin, Germany, Japan and everything else without the slightest preparation. As a result, I blame her entirely for all our adventures there.
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Ken
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Quite accurate. In fact, it goes farther back when he petitioned the great powers at the Versailles peace talks for equal rights in French Indochina but was ignored. He asked sitting U.S. President Woodrow Wilson for help to remove the French by any means possible in Vietnam, for a new nationalist movement and new government, but this idea was ignored. Guess who he turned to then?
He was an "ally" during WWII against the Japanese, successful military actions against the Japanese occupation forces. At the end of WWII, Ho adopted a constitution similar to ours and declared independence. He disbanded the Communist Party and called for a general election with all parties participating, but this government was'nt recognized internationally. He petitioned President Truman to accept Vietnamese independence, but was rebuffed due to French pressure on the U.S. and the fact that he was Communist.
Truman "gave" Indochina back to the French. We financed and advised the French until 1954- after Diện Biên Phủ -when we stopped and "gave" Indochina to Diem.
We financed and advised Diem until 1963, when he as assassinated and "gave" Indochina to a succession of other failing leaders.
So, yeah, we should have stayed on his side after WWII.
calsdad
NES Member
Why does it seem like the more and more I read about US history in the 20th century to try and understand how we got to where we are today - the more and more it seems like it all goes back to Woodrow Wilson and his interventionist tendencies and his push to get the US involved in world affairs?
I am currently reading "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History"
http://www.amazon.com/Politically-I...=pd_bbs_1/002-3165900-8557613?ie=UTF8&s=books
and it devotes some space to talking about how Wilson got us involved in WWI, raised income taxes to a high of 73% , wanted the US to be involved in world affairs, etc. Seems like when you trace all this back all paths lead to him, you could say that president Woodrow Wilson was the beginning of the end for this country.
I am currently reading "The Politically Incorrect Guide to American History"
http://www.amazon.com/Politically-I...=pd_bbs_1/002-3165900-8557613?ie=UTF8&s=books
and it devotes some space to talking about how Wilson got us involved in WWI, raised income taxes to a high of 73% , wanted the US to be involved in world affairs, etc. Seems like when you trace all this back all paths lead to him, you could say that president Woodrow Wilson was the beginning of the end for this country.
While Wilson was one of the first "progressive" Presidents, it's hard to lay it all on him personally. A lot of things happened during his administration that, whether he supported them or not, can hardly be laid at his feet. There were three extremely significant amendments to the Constitutions ratified during his administration. The first two were proposed before Wilson's election and ratificatified shortly after. While the movement for the third had been building for a long time, it was only proposed and ratified near the end of Wilson's second term.
First, the 16th Amendment gave us the income tax in 1913. Adjusted for inflation, the 1913 fax schedule had a $60,000 exemption for unmarried persons and an $80,000 exemptions for married. The tax rate was 1% for the first $400,000 of income over this exemption; the rate maxed out at 7% for income over $10 million. By 1920 the entire echedule had increased (at least for those few people who made enough to pay any taxes or the millionaires who broke out of the lowest bracket) with a maximum rate of 73% for incomes over $20 million. World War I was a big cause of the increase, but once they got a taste, politicians were about as likely to give it up as they would crack or meth.
Then there was the 17th Amendment, which made all US Senators popularly elected positions, requiring all states to follow the practice that had already become relatively common. This continued the drift from "these United States" to "the United States" that had started with the "Civil War", and pushed us another step from a Republic to a Democracy.
Finally, there was the 18th Amendment and Prohobition, reflecting the first great success of the progressive factions who openly admitted that they knew what was best for everyone, regardless of the poor misguided preferences of the individuals themselves.
(The 19th Amendment gave women the right to vote about the same time, but, while that reflects a large social change, it really doesn't have any political significance at the time. As a commentator noticed, by the next presidential election surveys indicated that over 90% of husbands and wives voted for identically.)
Ken
Ho Chi Minh, AKA "OSS Agent 19". It's said we supported him at the latter end of WW2, to keep the Japs pinned down in South East Asia. It's been documented, but, I don't remember where I saw it.
I don't buy his involvement with the Communist Party starting at the end of WW1, though. He was a French Communist before the war started.
A lot of folks think Communism is a Russian thing. It isn't. It's roots are in France and Germany, and grew to fruition in France.
I don't buy his involvement with the Communist Party starting at the end of WW1, though. He was a French Communist before the war started.
A lot of folks think Communism is a Russian thing. It isn't. It's roots are in France and Germany, and grew to fruition in France.
What I have read says that Ho settled in Paris in 1917. While there, he read Karl Marx and other left-wing writers and eventually he became interested in communism. The French Communist Party was formed in December, 1920 and Ho became one of its founder members.
So, if not at the end of WW1, then darn close.
Yep. Its written that he was taught by his father to be very nationalistic as both father and mother were involved in tyring to push out the French. Its also said that after WW1 hee asked President Wilson for help to remove the French by any means possible in Vietnam, for a new nationalist movement and new government, but his idea was ignored.
So.... he went where he had support. Too bad for us.
On September 2, 1945, the same day that Japan signed the formal surrender on the Mighty Mo, Ho declared Vietnam to be independent of France and any other powers, quoting from the Declaration of Independence (which had been supplied to him by the OSS).
Ken
Ken
