Florida-Summerfield homeowner injured, kills 2 intruders with AR-15

fshalor

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What doesnt make sense is that only one of them was charged with murder?
I'm betting the one not charged with murder either was the Craigslist person and didn't actually know something important, or has another charge for something else pending and the DA doesn't want to mess up something else.
 

amm5061

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I'm betting the one not charged with murder either was the Craigslist person and didn't actually know something important, or has another charge for something else pending and the DA doesn't want to mess up something else.
More likely he immediately rolled over on the other guy to avoid the felony murder charge.
 

PappyM3

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I don't think that the type of weapon matters all that much. Likely he could have done the same thing with a Remington 870, M1 Carbine, Semi auto handgun, or even a revolver.

What matters is that he stood his ground (!) and defended himself.
I disagree, give the fact that he was outnumbered 4-1 and they had multiple firearms, I think this could have ended badly if he only had a revolver or a shotgun. Heck, even a 15rnd pistol would be difficult to put enough rounds on multiple targets. I say that not just with the total rounds in the magazine, but the difference in ease of fast follow-up shots when comparing handguns to carbines.

Sure, standing his ground with lesser arms may result in him still killing two of them, but the chance of him also being killed rather than wounded is much higher.

Multiple opponents and their potential for increased angular separation drastically changes the self defense game.
 

M60

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I disagree, give the fact that he was outnumbered 4-1 and they had multiple firearms, I think this could have ended badly if he only had a revolver or a shotgun. Heck, even a 15rnd pistol would be difficult to put enough rounds on multiple targets. I say that not just with the total rounds in the magazine, but the difference in ease of fast follow-up shots when comparing handguns to carbines.

Sure, standing his ground with lesser arms may result in him still killing two of them, but the chance of him also being killed rather than wounded is much higher.

Multiple opponents and their potential for increased angular separation drastically changes the self defense game.
In your home, with four attackers, there's no where to go. The only choice is to defend as well as you are able to. I'd say the homeowner did a admirable job.
 

M60

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This is a perfect example as to why people need real, as oppressed to Fudd, weapons.
Well, I suppose a Remington 870 is owned by many a Fudd, but I wouldn't want to have to face that 870 in a shoot out. The Winchester 1897 pump shotgun wiped out many German trenches in WW11. Put a 1897 at both ends of a trench and the Germans shook in their boots and fell like flies. Germany even lodged a complaint that this tactic was unfair warfare. Did I mention that the 1897 Winchester only holds 5 rounds!
 

PappyM3

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In your home, with four attackers, there's no where to go. The only choice is to defend as well as you are able to. I'd say the homeowner did a admirable job.
I agree completely. I’m just saying the outcome may not have been as favorable if he had a lesser firearm. I’m also not saying that he shouldn’t have fought if he had a lesser firearm. I’m only saying that it’s a good thing he had that carbine.
 

M60

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I am not a Glock fan, but I do like a Glock 21 in the nightstand along with Smith TR8 and a 1911. All are lazer gripped or have a Viridian, lazer/light combination. In a tussle like the one discussed here, I'd tuck the TR8 in my belt and the Glock 21 in hand, assuming available time to do so.
This situation seems to be a great opportunity to stress the virtue of home carry.
 
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PappyM3

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Well, I suppose a Remington 870 is owned by many a Fudd, but I wouldn't want to have to face that 870 in a shoot out. The Winchester 1897 pump shotgun wiped out many German trenches in WW11. Put a 1897 at both ends of a trench and the Germans shook in their boots and fell like flies. Germany even lodged a complaint that this tactic was unfair warfare. Did I mention that the 1897 Winchester only holds 5 rounds!
You’re describing tactics employed by teams or squads, not a lone guy.
 

M60

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You’re describing tactics employed by teams or squads, not a lone guy.
Lol. I'm talking about 2 guys at most and more often than not just one man with a 5 shot pump shotgun against teams, squads, platoons and companies of Germans armed with full automatic weapons. You read my post quite backwards.
 

Dadstoys

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Well, I suppose a Remington 870 is owned by many a Fudd, but I wouldn't want to have to face that 870 in a shoot out. The Winchester 1897 pump shotgun wiped out many German trenches in WW11. Put a 1897 at both ends of a trench and the Germans shook in their boots and fell like flies. Germany even lodged a complaint that this tactic was unfair warfare. Did I mention that the 1897 Winchester only holds 5 rounds!
I always scratch my head at the notion that a shotgun loaded with buck is somehow inferior in a home defense situation.
I would invite anyone who is a doubter to help me cut up a 150 pound deer that has caught a load of 00's at 30 yards tell me then .
Major bones just shattered. Heart and lungs that look like a bucket of chum ect.
15 30 caliber projectiles traveling at 1200 fps per trigger pull with 3" mags.
I think that the shotgun=fudd therefore useless crowd needs to get out and actually kill something besides paper before they speak.
 

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It's not just the buyer you have to be concerned with , it's anyone he may have run his mouth off to as well.
Hey , I was over at the dudes place and he had a bunch of expensive stuff around .
"Ne'er-do-well Brother-in-law Effect".

I love when dirtbags f*** with the wrong guy.
They broke in to the wrong rec room.

I disagree, give the fact that he was outnumbered 4-1 and they had multiple firearms, I think this could have ended badly if he only had a revolver or a shotgun. Heck, even a 15rnd pistol would be difficult to put enough rounds on multiple targets. I say that not just with the total rounds in the magazine, but the difference in ease of fast follow-up shots when comparing handguns to carbines.
The statistics on the flip side is that when robbers and burglars
encounter guns'n'ammo pointed in their direction,
a lot of them switch to "Asses and Elbows Mode".

Maybe not the most prudent behavior to bet your life on,
but never say never.

I am not a Glock fan, but I do like a Glock 21 in the nightstand along with Smith TR8 and a 1911. All are lazer gripped or have a Viridian, lazer/light combination.
Although FWIW, my perception is that our AR makes its own light.

(I tried to photograph the muzzle flash during our last solar eclipse(*),
but there was no one to help me,
and I couldn't manage to pull the bang switch
exactly when the camera timer counted down to zero).

(*) A solar eclipse is the only time when
it's not a violation of my club's range rules
to shoot an AR in the dark.
 

Evadd

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I don't think that the type of weapon matters all that much. Likely he could have done the same thing with a Remington 870, M1 Carbine, Semi auto handgun, or even a revolver.
Can't tell by the article. You're assuming he put one shot in each bad guy. Maybe the stiffs took 4 each, maybe some missed, etc.
 

BigTimber

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I always scratch my head at the notion that a shotgun loaded with buck is somehow inferior in a home defense situation.
I would invite anyone who is a doubter to help me cut up a 150 pound deer that has caught a load of 00's at 30 yards tell me then .
Major bones just shattered. Heart and lungs that look like a bucket of chum ect.
15 30 caliber projectiles traveling at 1200 fps per trigger pull with 3" mags.
I think that the shotgun=fudd therefore useless crowd needs to get out and actually kill something besides paper before they speak.
I remember seeing photos of a guy killed by a Homeowner years ago when a few dudes broke into his house. He hit the first dude with a shotgun using buckshot in a back bedroom of the house. The blast sent that mother fvcker to Jesus so fast he was still clutching shit in both his hands. Froze dead like a scumbag popsicle in a instant.
 
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PappyM3

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I always scratch my head at the notion that a shotgun loaded with buck is somehow inferior in a home defense situation.
I would invite anyone who is a doubter to help me cut up a 150 pound deer that has caught a load of 00's at 30 yards tell me then .
Major bones just shattered. Heart and lungs that look like a bucket of chum ect.
15 30 caliber projectiles traveling at 1200 fps per trigger pull with 3" mags.
I think that the shotgun=fudd therefore useless crowd needs to get out and actually kill something besides paper before they speak.
The issue isn’t the power, it’s the low round count and slow follow-up for additional shots. Taking one shot at a deer s much different than having to engage multiple targets that might be shooting back at you. I think you may need to get on a two-way range before you speak. Not really, as you’re entitled to your opinion like others, but your point of view seems a little narrowly focused.
 

PappyM3

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Lol. I'm talking about 2 guys at most and more often than not just one man with a 5 shot pump shotgun against teams, squads, platoons and companies of Germans armed with full automatic weapons. You read my post quite backwards.
I did not read it backwards. If you think the shotgun/trench tactics were successful without additional resources/soldiers to keep the Germans from maneuvering, then I think you may want to re-analyze the engagements.

Also, most Germans had long, bolt action, 5 shot rifles. Not hard to overwhelm those weapons in close quarters, even with a pump shotgun.
 
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M60

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I did not read it backwards. If you think the shotgun/trench tactics were successful without additional resources/soldiers to keep the Germans from maneuvering, then I think you may want to re-analyze the engagements.

Also, most Germans had long, bolt action, 5 shot rifles. Not hard to overwhelm those weapons in close quarters, even with a pump shotgun.
Thank you for confirming my point, after your three posts. Sure Germans had some bolt rifles. They also had pretty quick full autos. The point should be obvious. Put one or two soldiers at each end of a trench FULL of Germans and the Germans were rendered useless. That's pretty effective warfare. Weapons change. So tell me then, why does the Marine Corps place such a high value on their HK semi auto shotguns in todays warfare? I've seen the shotgun utilized in combat very successfully. Perhaps you need to get out of the classroom or out from behind the video screen and earn some practical application time to understand the shotguns true virtues. This is 2019 and I suggest to you, that if you took your best standard capacity semi auto weapon and engaged my HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, semi auto, shotgun, you would experience the appropriate attitude adjustment and a whole new respect for the shotgun.
 
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BigTimber

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Thank you for confirming point, after your three posts. Sure Germans had some bolt rifles. They also had pretty quick full autos. The point should be obvious. Put one or two soldiers at each end of a trench FULL of Germans and the Germans were rendered useless. That's pretty effective warfare. Weapons change. So tell me then, why does the Marine Corps place such a high value on their HK semi auto shotguns in todays warfare? I've seen the shotgun utilized in combat very successfully. Perhaps you need to get out of the classroom or out from behind the video screen and earn some practical application time to understand the shotguns true virtues. This is 2019 and I suggest to you, that if you took your best standard capacity semi auto weapon and engaged my HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, semi auto, shotgun, you would experience the appropriate attitude adjustment and a whole new respect for the shotgun.
I too have a M1 super 90. Close up scariest weapon I have. With the X tube on it Your launching near a 100 32cal(?) balls down range in oh 3 seconds maybe. Buck shot.
 
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PappyM3

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Thank you for confirming point, after your three posts. Sure Germans had some bolt rifles. They also had pretty quick full autos. The point should be obvious. Put one or two soldiers at each end of a trench FULL of Germans and the Germans were rendered useless. That's pretty effective warfare. Weapons change. So tell me then, why does the Marine Corps place such a high value on their HK semi auto shotguns in todays warfare? I've seen the shotgun utilized in combat very successfully. Perhaps you need to get out of the classroom or out from behind the video screen and earn some practical application time to understand the shotguns true virtues. This is 2019 and I suggest to you, that if you took your best standard capacity semi auto weapon and engaged my HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, semi auto, shotgun, you would experience the appropriate attitude adjustment and a whole new respect for the shotgun.
1. You’re changing goal posts. A semi-auto shotgun allows quicker follow up shots than the pump actions that were being described, and are a better option than pumps for home defense... if you don’t mind a higher risk of collateral damage. But regarding your “me vs you” challenge, that is 1 on 1. 1 on 1 within a small building, any shotgun will be pretty effective against an unarmored threat. 1 on multiple in a hallway/fatal funnel, a shotgun is still pretty effective. The problem with shotguns presents itself in 1 on multiple situation in a room where the threats have significant angular separation.

2. I have quite a bit of practical experience in combat, urban warfare and clearing houses. My comments do not come from academia or video screens.

3. First of all, the German complaints you mention were from WWI, not WWII. Even in WWII, they didn’t have “some” bolt actions. The majority of German soldiers used bolt action rifles. In WWI, with the absence of SMGs, there were even more. And the MGs were used for fire and maneuver outside of trenches, not inside the trenches. Lastly, no it wasn’t just one or two Americans with shotguns killing or capturing companies of Germans or rendering them useless. Shotguns were an effective tool when complimenting squad and platoon maneuvers for clearing trenches in WWI. That is true. But you’re overemphasizing their role in WWI, and they weren’t used nearly as much in WWII.

4. For the Marine Corps TTPs, I don’t know how they currently use the shotgun. I wasn’t in the Corps. However, in the Army and in most of the SOCOM elements I worked with, the shotgun has been reverted to a breaching tool for the later ~3/4 of the GWOT. I will say that I like a lot about Marine Corps ideology, but they’re sometimes stuck in their mindset with weapons. They maintained the 20” M16 as their primary Infantry weapon for far too long, as an example.
 
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M60

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I too have a M1 super 90. Close up scariest weapon I have. With the X tube on it Your launching near a 100 32cal(?) balls down range in oh 3 seconds maybe. Buck shot.
My M1 Super 90 came from the factory with a 8 shot magazine tube. With one in the chamber that's nines rounds of buckshot. I'm not sure that a full auto AR can put as many projectiles down range as fast as my shotgun can. To add insult to injury I think that the Benelli is still the fastest cycling shotgun in the world.
if that's not enough, at 50 yards this shotgun at 50 yards using slugs and with iron sights and a smooth bore will group a three hole group with all three slug holes touching each other and do it consistently. No AR can do all of it the way this shotgun can. Someone is going to point out that the AR is better for longer distance so I'll point out that if you are shooting at a bad guy at a longer distance you're going to have some serious splaining to do with the D.A..
 

M60

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1. You’re changing goal posts. A semi-auto shotgun allows quicker follow up shots than the pump actions that were being described, and are a better option than pumps for home defense... if you don’t mind a higher risk of collateral damage.

2. I have quite a bit of practical experience in combat, urban warfare and clearing houses. My comments do not come from academia or video screens.

3. First of all, the German complaints you mention were from WWI, not WWII. Even in WWII, they didn’t have “some” bolt actions. The majority of German soldiers used bolt action rifles. In WWI, with the absence of SMGs, there were even more. And the MGs were used for fire and maneuver outside of trenches, not inside the trenches. Lastly, no it wasn’t just one or two Americans with shotguns killing or capturing companies of Germans or rendering them useless. Shotguns were an effective tool when complimenting squad and platoon maneuvers for clearing trenches in WWI. That is true. But you’re overemphasizing their role in WWI, and they weren’t used nearly as much in WWII.

4. For the Marine Corps TTPs, I don’t know how they currently use the shotgun. I wasn’t in the Corps. However, in the Army and in most of the SOCOM elements I worked with, the shotgun has been reverted to a breaching tool for the later ~3/4 of the GWOT. I will say that I like a lot about Marine Corps ideology, but they’re sometimes stuck in their mindset with weapons. They maintained the 20” M16 as their primary Infantry weapon for far too long, as an example.
Lol. I have and have had several Winchester 1897 shotguns that were once used in the prison system. They hold 5 rounds and I'm here to tell you that when I cut loose with it you wouldn't be shooting back assuming you're sane. The 1897 has a interesting feature. That is that if you keep your finger on the trigger it will rain buckshot as fast as you can pump it and with training/practice it can be pumped faster and more accurately than you apparently believe.
As for the HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, verses your semi auto AR, as Big Timber has already posted in this thread, his HK/Benelli M1 Super 90 will put about 100, .32 cal. buckshot projectiles down range in about three seconds. Your suggestion that it's primarily just a door busting tool, just isn't realistic. Your AR will not put down range, as much fire, or as fast as the M1 Super 90 will, period.
As for the Marine Corps., yes the Corps. does things a bit differently than the Army. For one, the Corps. Generals listen more to what the grunts say and want. For example, when the grunts said that 9mm, fmj, ammo wasn't stopping the bad guys, the Corps. went to Springfield Armory and ordered new 1911, .45 acp hand guns for them to help get the job done better. I don't care who you are, if you're American, you have to love that level of support.
As a owner of the M1 Super 90 I have harvested deer with my M1 Super 90 and I defend my home with it. I'll stack it up against anything you or a bad guy can legally own and if a bad guy should have a full auto that I cant own, I want my M1 Super 90 even more.
 
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PappyM3

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Lol. I have and have had several Winchester 1897 shotguns that were once used in the prison system. They hold 5 rounds and I'm here to tell you that when I cut loose with it you wouldn't be shooting back assuming you're sane. The 1897 has a interesting feature. That is that if you keep your finger on the trigger it will rain buckshot as fast as you can pump it and with training/practice it can be pumped faster and more accurately than you apparently believe.
As for the HK/Benelli M1 Super 90, verses your semi auto AR, as Big Timber has already posted in this thread, his HK/Benelli M1 Super 90 will put about 100, .32 cal. buckshot projectiles down range in about three seconds. Your suggestion that it's primarily just a door busting tool, just isn't realistic. Your AR will not put down range, as much fire, or as fast as the M1 Super 90 will, period.
We should all spray and pray with rapid 12ga shot, got it. I realize buckshot can be placed accurately, but unloading a semi-auto 12ga in 3 seconds when having to swing the gun around to different targets spread around a room, will most likely not be accurately placed. Then what, when you’ve blown your load in a gun that’s slow to reload?

1. The discussion was about pump actions and revolvers, you’re changing things up with semi-auto shotgun inclusion. I already mentioned they were more effective than pumps if you don’t mind increased risk of collateral damage.

2. Please, school me on current USMC TTPs for the M1 Super 90, that are actually used in combat. Outside of the USMC, shotguns are almost exclusively used for breaching, period.

-Edit, you also didn’t address any of my facts regarding shotgun usage in WWI vs WWII and infantry squad tactics or the German arms of the day.
 
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