Firearms Safety course rip-offs

[News Shooter]

Hi guys
Thanks for the support. I am really not trying to be noble here. I'm new at the gun store thing so I may be a little more sensitive. I just remember that deer caught in the headlight look she had on her face when she left. I'm pretty sure she is going to take another course so that's good..
Thanks for the feedback

 

[News Shooter]

Well, at the risk of beating a dead horse, I had my second one yesterday. You're not going to believe this but the guy didn't know the difference between a revolver and a semi-auto. He asked questions like "What is the black gun on the wall (AR-15)?" and "What do you use it for?"

I started questioning him about was he thinking about getting a license and he said "Oh yes, I just got my Class A LTC and I want to buy the gun with the biggest bullets."

When I finally convinced him that he really needed to at least hold a gun in his hand (He had never held one) or better yet go somewhere and fire it, I handed a pistol to him and he promptly put his finger on the trigger and started pointing it around the shop.

I mean what kind of education course doesn't at least ram that home? We tried to get him to take one of our courses for the shooting time if nothing else but he wouldn't have any part of it.
He had his license in hand and that was it.

I'm not writing this to make fun of the guy. He was almost child-like in his ignorance. I guess I'm just going to have to get used to it and realize that in a free country this is just going to happen.

PS the woman who caused me to start this whole thing did sign up for our course!!

 

[Chris]

There will always be those that "get away".

What I find amazing is that after 9 years of teaching, I've yet to put a name from the news into my database of past students and get a match.

I had a guy on Saturday who kept locking back the slide with the muzzle in his crotch. I must have corrected him half a dozen times. His reaction was "I learned it that way - hard habit to break". I'll be watching the Darwin Awards on this one.

 

[jar]

You can certainly get an LTC without knowing what an AR is, since the NRA basic pistol course doesn't say a thing about long guns. Of course, at my basic pistol class, a friend happened to be at the range shooting his AR and came over and let us shoot a few rounds after the class.

Getting a safety class certificate without having safe direction and trigger discipline pounded home is inexcusable however.

 

[M1911]

I had a guy on Saturday who kept locking back the slide with the muzzle in his crotch. I must have corrected him half a dozen times. His reaction was "I learned it that way - hard habit to break". I'll be watching the Darwin Awards on this one.

I'd have thrown him off my range after the second time he tried that.

 

[bpm990d]

I'd have thrown him off my range after the second time he tried that.

Yep. Easier to refund money to one moron, than have to refund it to everyone else in the class that missed their instruction because he blew his balls off and they all had to give statements to the police for the entire afternoon.

B

 

[FITH]

I had a guy on Saturday who kept locking back the slide with the muzzle in his crotch. I must have corrected him half a dozen times. His reaction was "I learned it that way - hard habit to break". I'll be watching the Darwin Awards on this one.

Wait a minute....Did you have the famous DEA agent there? Mr. "I'm the only one qualified to handle this Glock"

 

[snowjoker]

As an NRA trainer I ALWAYS provide range time with multiple calibers and styles, no matter which training I am doing for several reasons.

One is that my full time job is as a corporate trainer. I understand very well the importance of hands on instruction and the value that is instills to people with different learning styles.

Two is that i see plenty of people that have never handled a firearm in there lives. Regardless of what the NRA or State police require, I will not send them out into the world with a gun and no knowledge of how they feel when they fire.

Third I would not train someone solely on using a .22 then have them run out and buy and .40 or .45 and have them shoot themselves in suprise because it doesn't shoot the way they expected the .22 to shoot.

I have also seen my fair share of people that had very very poor training. The one that sticks out to me the most was a guy that came in one night back when I was working the Lodge in the Taunton Dick's store.

He walked up to the counter and kinda browsed a bit, he pulls out a brand spanking new LTC A and asks how many shots the double barreled shotgun holds....

I couldn't even help it...I just busted out laughing and said "Umm, just the two of them...Unless you only put one shell in it."

I then realized he was dead serious and was not laughing. He asked if he could see it and I looked him straight in the face and said "I think that would be a very bad idea." and he just put his license away and left.

 

[JonJ]

I couldn't even help it...I just busted out laughing and said "Umm, just the two of them...Unless you only put one shell in it."

I then realized he was dead serious and was not laughing. He asked if he could see it and I looked him straight in the face and said "I think that would be a very bad idea." and he just put his license away and left.

And you missed your chance to teach him something. People who may appear to be uneducated should not be laughed at. We need more people to help our cause.
You could have invited him to a range or pointed him in the right direction.
Sadly, he may have given up on firearms or is still running around out there with no idea.

 

[snowjoker]

And you missed your chance to teach him something. People who may appear to be uneducated should not be laughed at. We need more people to help our cause.
You could have invited him to a range or pointed him in the right direction.
Sadly, he may have given up on firearms or is still running around out there with no idea.

Believe me, I know that. I seriously thought he was kidding. I would never have laughed if I thought he was serious.

Sometimes you take for granted peoples mannerisms and appearances. This guy was totally confident in his question like it was a joke and he was dressed like he just came in from hunting. He was wearing boots, real tree camo pants and a stoking cap. He knew to pull his license out before he asked. He even seemed knowledgable about the gun. He called it by name and guage then out came the question...I seriously thought he was kidding.

As a corporate trainer I have learned to read peoples skill levels very well, but this guy blew me away. He either had no idea how uneducated about guns he really was or he really was pulling my leg and was just a great actor.

 

[News Shooter]

Believe me, I know that. I seriously thought he was kidding. I would never have laughed if I thought he was serious.

Sometimes you take for granted peoples mannerisms and appearances. This guy was totally confident in his question like it was a joke and he was dressed like he just came in from hunting. He was wearing boots, real tree camo pants and a stoking cap. He knew to pull his license out before he asked. He even seemed knowledgable about the gun. He called it by name and guage then out came the question...I seriously thought he was kidding.

As a corporate trainer I have learned to read peoples skill levels very well, but this guy blew me away. He either had no idea how uneducated about guns he really was or he really was pulling my leg and was just a great actor.

I understand that. I seriously thought this guy had a brain injury or something until he pulled out hs LTC. Then we spent a half hour trying to educate him and get him to take the course, but he pretty much ignored us

 

[JimConway]

Faulty training

From my perspective as a firearms trainer, I would be concerned the the trainer failed miserably. If I had been his NRA instructor, I would be very embarrassed and would be doing a lot of soul searching. It is very clear to me that his instructor did not teach the student adequately. From my view, I think that the most important items that we must communicate to the student are safety, safety and safety. After that we must ensure that the student understands the Mass firearms laws in the areas required by the Mass State police.
We must also recognize that we are limited by both time and the NRA course outlines. There is no course that can cover all that a student should know or may need to know.
Consider for a moment, that the student has been getting wrong information from the news, the movies and his equally ignorant friends for his whole lifetime. How can any instructor both teach and unteach a student in a 4 or 10 hour NRA course?
Maybe, in the case of the double barreled shotgun, mentioned earlier, the student had never seen or even touched one. There is no sin in simple ignorance. There is, however, a sin in continuing to be ignorant

 

[Chris]

I'd have thrown him off my range after the second time he tried that.

I need to add some more details....

NRA Home Firearm Safety. No range, no ammo, just lecture and some hands on. (I've covered the reasons I support holding this course in another thread)

There isn't even a test, but I do make everyone clear a semi pistol properly before I let them move on. This bozo did the 'test' just fine. It was when he was checking out other things that I caught him with the bad habit. In the end he did manage to stop doing it, but just due to the way he carried himself I have NO confidence that he'll not revert after leaving the class.

First time he came to the table was at the first break. He was interested in the M&Ps and I was standing there and answered his questions. That's when he performed crotch shot #1 and I got the 'bad habit" remark.

He'd point the gun deliberately to the floor, pull the magazine, rack the slide, and then when it came to setting the slide lock, he'd angle the gun to see what he was doing and he pointed it at the 'kids'.

Each break he'd be back to see the M&Ps and I made sure I was there. (Don't think he liked that) Sure enough, he would end his slide lock with a muzzle crossing his gonads.

He argued that it was clear. My comment was that the rule is NEVER. He gave me a "whatever" response and then did it right. I only caught him once more after that.

I've had plenty of people who take time getting the "safe direction" drilled, but most of them try hard to get it right. This was different. It was more that he was tired of me correcting him that made him do it right rather than some desire to get it right.

Sorry if the original post wasn't clear. I mentioned it only as an example of seeing someone who took the class because he had to, but never intended to learn a thing.

 

[JimConway]

NRA Home Firearm Safety Course

Chris
I also prefer to teach the NRA Home Firearm Safety Course, but we do it a bit differently. We teach the course just as the NRA intended and also fullly cover the required Mass firearms law material. After the course is completed and the certificates handed out, we offer to take the students to the range as an optional, no additional cost, course enhancement. (No student has ever passed on this)
On the range we teach them how to shoot with techniques that we have developed, for 2 to 3 hours. We feel that this will get them started right and gives us a chance to interact with them one on one to reenforce the satety rules.
I am constantly amazed at how many of our students join me to shoot whenever I am on the range. The only bad part of this is that it, sometimes, severely cuts into my shooting time. I realy do not mind.

 

[bpm990d]

I've done a fair amount of training over the years, and this is a question for all of the professional trainers out there. At what point to you say enough to a person with an attitude, or someone that just doesn't get it? I would think that there are circumstances where you decide that the person is not getting a training certificate because of a failure to understand the material or an attitude that prevents that despite your attempts to inculcate them. I understand that there is fair amount required to unlearn people's bad habits and incorrect attitudes, but where would all of you personally draw the line? Also was there any discussion in your training about determining where that line falls.

B

 

[M1911]

Yep. Easier to refund money to one moron, than have to refund it to everyone else in the class that missed their instruction because he blew his balls off and they all had to give statements to the police for the entire afternoon.
B

No need to refund money. The agreement for my classes indicates that 1) range rules are mandatory, 2) anyone who repeatedly violates range rules will be removed from the class and money will not be refunded. In other words, follow the rules or be gone.

 

[M1911]

Chris:

Ah, thanks for the expanded explanation. Now I understand more fully. That's a more severe version of the bad habit that I see all the time with semi-autos. Typically a right-hander points the muzzle directly to their left while locking open the slide. On two occasions at matches I've been on the shooters left and ended up looking at the muzzle end of a 1911.

On both occasions, I corrected the individuals, once with success and once without.

When I teach, I show people a method first taught to me by the late George Danas when I took Basic Pistol. If you need to go overhand to lock the slide open, keep the muzzle pointed down range and step forward with your left leg (talking about righties here), pivoting on your right leg until your body is 90 degrees to the back stop. The muzzle is still kept pointing down range and now the gun is right in front of your body, pointed to your left. Now you can go overhand to lock back the slide while keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction.

When I teach unloading semi-autos, I focus on this handling error very heavily.

 

[Nickle]

I've done a fair amount of training over the years, and this is a question for all of the professional trainers out there. At what point to you say enough to a person with an attitude, or someone that just doesn't get it? I would think that there are circumstances where you decide that the person is not getting a training certificate because of a failure to understand the material or an attitude that prevents that despite your attempts to inculcate them. I understand that there is fair amount required to unlearn people's bad habits and incorrect attitudes, but where would all of you personally draw the line? Also was there any discussion in your training about determining where that line falls.

B

The training I do doesn't give a certificate at the end, just a CMP certificate for attending. It's not rerquired training for any permits.

Now, I have run into several students over the course of time that were just not getting it, and their egos were getting in the way of them learning how to shoot. Like when I try to show them how to do something, and they try to argue it's validity.

The way I generally handle it is simple. As long as they're safe, they can stay and frustrate themselves all they want. The bulk of my time will go to those that warrant it, based on their desire to learn. I give the "problem children" little help, unless directly asked, as I'm busy with the ones that came to learn.

Now, an unsafe student gets a warning. Continue to screw up minor items, and you will get sick of getting corrected. Make a major screw up, you fix it and pronto. Continunually screwing up major items, and you get told to leave.

I know, it's sad to not help the problem children with their troubles. But, the other students paid to attend as well, and they too deserve to get their money's worth.

The "Boneheads", well, they obviously don't want "their money's worth", they just want to blame someone besides themselves for their poor marksmanship skills. (And, yes, I have come across a few that were EXACTLY this way.)

As to where the line is, well that depends on the specific flaw and how safety oriented it is.

If it doesn't affect Safety at all, and they resist learning, I'll quit correcting them based on how they react to the correction. If they try to lecture me on something clearly obvious, I give up after the first time they lecture me. They are "on their own" and they may or may not get the results they seek.

If it is a Safety issue, they WILL do it my way or leave. PERIOD, and no discussion. They do get told that at that time, too.

We cover "checking your ego at the gate" and what we expect safety wise before they bring their rifles to the firing line.

We do adapt the way some things are done based on any physical limitations the shooter may have. That's nothing more than a different way to "skin the cat". The end result will be the same.

 

[KMaurer]

It seems that there's usually at least one person in each class who ends up pointing the the muzzle of a semi-auto in a bad direction (either towards the person to their left or towards the twins) while working the slide. I expect this am prepared when it happens. I've never had anybody pull the "that's how I was trained" BS; instead they usually get fairly embarrassed when I interrupt and point out the direction of the muzzle. It's usually easier to manipulate the firearm when it's in a cross body position, so I don't try to fight against that. I just teach them to turn their bodies when doing so in order to keep the muzzle down range. Once it's been pointed out to the first person, all the rest of the class manages to avoid sweeping their crotches without my needing to remind them.

Ken

 

[News Shooter]

UPDATE

Well, the woman came into the store again Sunday. She had taken my advice and signed up for our NRA course a couple of months ago. I hadn't seen her since I sold her the P-22.

You wouldn't have known it was the same person. She was totally confident and poised and had just gotten her tax refund check and decided to use half for a trip and the other half to buy a new Smith 41 because she wants to get into target competition.

As she was leaving with her new purchase she said to me that next time she would be in for a bigger caliber.

I love it when a plan works.

The question you would have to ask is whether or not your average male would have gone back and taken another course

 

[JimConway]

News Shooter
What you described is one of the special joys that an instructor experiences from time to time. One of these moments makes up for the students that think they know everything. These people seem to respond to most instructions with a comment like "that is not what I was told be the (pick one) guy at the gun store, the salesman at the gun store, a guy that I met at the range, or a guy that was a Navy Seal.

Congratulations on a job well done

 

[Mikey]

I think I mentioned this before here but when my wife was looking for the Basic Pistol course to get her LTC I went to the Ware gun shop and asked them about the class they offered. He told me the date of the next available class and said it started a 6pm. So I though to myself "a weeknight starting at 6pm? that is going to take all night.", then I asked him how long the class was, he said "about an hour". So needless to say I walked out and she took her class somewhere else.

 

[News Shooter]

News Shooter
What you described is one of the special joys that an instructor experiences from time to time. One of these moments makes up for the students that think they know everything. These people seem to respond to most instructions with a comment like "that is not what I was told be the (pick one) guy at the gun store, the salesman at the gun store, a guy that I met at the range, or a guy that was a Navy Seal.

Congratulations on a job well done

Thanks Jim
As much as I would like to take credit, the credit goes to her for following through and realizing she needed help.
Dave

 

[JimConway]

I disagree. When she first visited you she knew nothing. You showed her the way

 

[Nickle]

I disagree. When she first visited you she knew nothing. You showed her the way

Absolutely. The credit is for opening her eyes up, and letting her see the best way to go. Sounds like she followed through.