Firearms Safety-ALWAYS! Sad Lesson

Len-2A Training

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There is NO room for any lapses/errors in gun safety, ever!

The following links tell a very sad story about negligence that led to the death of one LEO at the hands of another LEO. [sad]

I strongly suggest reading the links (including the long Grand Jury report) and learn something from it, so that perhaps we should never be guilty of behavior that could lead to disaster.

Gun 'flew' from cop's hand
Renninger, Sollman bumped into each other, sources say.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/news/expresstimes/stories/sollman_j.html

Easton SWAT officer dies after Downtown shooting
http://www.pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/news/expresstimes/stories/sollman_a.html

Special Report - Sollman Shooting (lots of links to story)
http://www.pennlive.com/news/sollman/

How It Happened According to Grand Jury Report
http://www.pennlive.com/news/expresstimes/pdf/shooting.pdf

Grand Jury Report
http://www.pennlive.com/expresstimes/pdf/sollma_grand_jury.pdf

[halfmast]
 
"The firearm flew out of his hand. He grabbed for (the gun) and in grabbing it, squeezed the trigger and shot Jesse as Jesse was walking out of the room," one source said, describing Renninger's account.
If you teach handgun courses, it is worth mentioning that it is more dangerous to try to catch a dropped firearm than to let it fall, provided it's a modern model with an effective firing pin block. It's also appropriate to mention what types of guns are not necessarily "drop safe".
 
LenS said:
There is NO room for any lapses/errors in gun safety, ever!

The following links tell a very sad story about negligence that led to the death of one LEO at the hands of another LEO. [sad]
snip
Grand Jury Report
http://www.pennlive.com/expresstimes/pdf/sollma_grand_jury.pdf
Did I read that right? They're not blaming the officer with the gun but the entire department and it's training policies? [shocked]

Simply amazing.
 
Well, the Grand Jury found him negligent but not rising to the level of a criminal act. They also recommended that he be terminated from his job.

I can only speak for one PD here in MA, but I have never seen any policies at all on gun handling (and we were given the same book of Dept Policies that the FT POs got, thru 1996 when I left the PD), never attended any gun safety class in the Academy (they only taught about parts of the gun, etc. in the 1980s-early 1990s) and the last In Service firearms class I had with MPTC was in 2000. I can hope that some PDs have written (and sensible) policies on gun handling plus training on same, but I suspect that this would be the exception rather than the rule.
 
I own the exact same gun as in question H&K USPc .40, S/N 26-xxxxxx and do not believe that this gun could ever fire if dropped (with safety off) unless something pressed the trigger.
 
LenS said:
I can only speak for one PD here in MA, but I have never seen any policies at all on gun handling (and we were given the same book of Dept Policies that the FT POs got, thru 1996 when I left the PD), never attended any gun safety class in the Academy (they only taught about parts of the gun, etc. in the 1980s-early 1990s) and the last In Service firearms class I had with MPTC was in 2000.

No pun intended, but that's criminal in a negligent fashion. I mean, they teach pursuit driving, right? And how to use the patrol car in all ways? So why not teach ALL aspects of safe use of one of their OTHER tools?
 
Ross,

We NEVER had any "driver training" with cruisers. During my 18 years, no FT officer at our PD did either!

I think Jon has stated that the state has now started offering this within the past number of years. Don't know that all officers get this opportunity or not or if it is part of current academy training.

I do know that due to budget constraints and <self-censored> our PD won't spend any real money on training or bring training here. If MPTC offers it, maybe but the local PD won't sponsor/run anything additional. Truly, they don't have any money to do it here either.
 
This accident, unfortunately, does not surprise me. It seems like a lot of LEO's don't ever train they just qualify every year. I know a few police officers that do shoot a lot but even by their admission most of their co-workers don't. I have been at a range where my friends 11 year old son shot a local cops AR better than the "trained" officer. Please don't think I am bashing LEO's, I am not, but I think that someone who may depend on their ability with a firearm to save his/her life, or mine for that matter, should be far more proficient at shooting and the safe handling of any weapon. Hope this doesn't piss off the cops in the forum that is not my intent.
 
LenS said:
I own the exact same gun as in question H&K USPc .40, S/N 26-xxxxxx and do not believe that this gun could ever fire if dropped (with safety off) unless something pressed the trigger.

+1 I own the same and don't believe it could fire without the trigger being pulled.
 
jshooter said:
This accident, unfortunately, does not surprise me. It seems like a lot of LEO's don't ever train they just qualify every year. I know a few police officers that do shoot a lot but even by their admission most of their co-workers don't. I have been at a range where my friends 11 year old son shot a local cops AR better than the "trained" officer. Please don't think I am bashing LEO's, I am not, but I think that someone who may depend on their ability with a firearm to save his/her life, or mine for that matter, should be far more proficient at shooting and the safe handling of any weapon. Hope this doesn't piss off the cops in the forum that is not my intent.
Don't worry. It's a known fact that the majority of departments DO NOT have any regular firearms training. It's just a fact of life.
It appears that it is not and has never been a priority. That's why they carry indemnity insurance on us[wink]
 
And I thought my boss was bad about training. His idea of training is to give me a copy of the manual for XXX phone system that I can read on my own time... or on the jobsite when I'm on the customer's nickel trying to figure out how to program whatever feature it is he wants. [rolleyes]

But at least no one DIES because I'm not trained on a particular phone system!!!

That's just... I'm having a hard time understanding it, I really am. I'm not doubting you, Len, Jon - I just can't understand the mindset that doesn't give you guys the training you NEED to do your job.
 
dwarven1 said:
And I thought my boss was bad about training. His idea of training is to give me a copy of the manual for XXX phone system that I can read on my own time... or on the jobsite when I'm on the customer's nickel trying to figure out how to program whatever feature it is he wants. [rolleyes]

But at least no one DIES because I'm not trained on a particular phone system!!!

That's just... I'm having a hard time understanding it, I really am. I'm not doubting you, Len, Jon - I just can't understand the mindset that doesn't give you guys the training you NEED to do your job.


So I guess we know who to go to for free local and long distance phone service!
 
dwarven1 said:
And I thought my boss was bad about training. His idea of training is to give me a copy of the manual for XXX phone system that I can read on my own time... or on the jobsite when I'm on the customer's nickel trying to figure out how to program whatever feature it is he wants. [rolleyes]

But at least no one DIES because I'm not trained on a particular phone system!!!

That's just... I'm having a hard time understanding it, I really am. I'm not doubting you, Len, Jon - I just can't understand the mindset that doesn't give you guys the training you NEED to do your job.
Ross, talk to someone in your local PD. If they're the "norm" he'll tell you there is no training. The 40hr yearly In-service is just as bad. It's more of how to keep the Chiefs and Depts from being sued and useless classes on incident command (that doesn't work!) so that they can apply for huge federal grants. Not to mention that it's also the seed for a nationalized police force. In-Service firearms is just a pre-qual and qual. Nothing more, other than some rudimentary help if someone can't qual.
I've said it before numerous times, even though I'm a certified instructor, I was told "We will never use you".
 
Firearm's Training

NJ requires a twice yearly qualification with a passing score of 80%. It is a fifty or sixty round course. Beyond that nothing is mandated other than a seminar on the use of forse. The includes all types of force and not limited to firearms. In fact firearm's is a very small part of that portion of the training.

As far as a AD, we had a similar incident in our town involving an officer from a very large department of almost one thousand officers. His duty semi-auto slipped from his shoulder holster and he attempted to grab it before it hit the ground when it fired. Fortunatly, no one was injured and only one bystander was slightly cut from a chunk of flying debris. His department did give him a very bad time but I was not involved in the disiplinary action so I don't know the outcome. That incident made me dislike shoulder holster to even a greater level. [thinking]
 
rscalzo said:
NJ requires a twice yearly qualification with a passing score of 80%.
Well that's two times more than MA.
Like we've said before, it's money.
Take a dept of 50 for example. 8 hrs of OT at an average of $35 (conservative) per hour. That equals $280 per officer for a total of $14,000 plus ammo. That's a good chunk of change.
The Chief looks at it like this. What's the chances of an officer getting into a shooting situation and if in that situation, what the chance that the dept will be sued for a bad shoot? If sued the dept's insurance will cover. Most departments indemnify each officer for 1 mil. The premium is already paid on that insurance and built into the budgets.
Unless an officer commits some heinous act in a shooting situation, his defense will be the lack of training and the city/town will have to eat it.
 
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