FFL's that won't release a transfer after three days if no proceed on a nics check

[Rugerfan]

I don't see how this is a big deal unless your local wont email copies to (wherever). Call the inbounding shop "hay I am getting XXX from YYY, can you email a copy of your FFL
to YYY? [email protected] ok fine!" if it takes anything more then that, then yeah, something is effed.



Nobody thinks to ask about it because not doing a default proceed is highly anomalous. There are probably less than a half dozen dealers in new england that don't allow a default
proceed. The rest of them all will. Someone calling to ask about that is like asking the tire shop if they're going to check the pressure after they put the new tires on. Nobody ever thinks to ask about it because its sort of an implied default thing that is supposed to just happen.

That aside, if someone is delay prone they should ALWAYS ask the dealer what their policy is about that. Nobody is going to get offended by the question.



You are wrong, if a gun is sold at retail by a dealer or travels via a carrier (shipped) it still goes through the same process as anything else. The only difference is there are less restrictions on who can buy long guns from a non-state-of-residence dealer. There is a dealer and a NICS check involved in nearly all gun transactions except private sales between individuals who BOTH reside in the same state.

I do stand corrected.

 

[ScottS]

Cold day in hell before I would give a copy of my FFL to anyone other than a licensee. Jack.

Interesting. I've had more than one FFL supply me with copies of their FFL for tansfers. Hell, I saw a gunshop where they had a copy posted on their website for transfers.

 

[dwarven1]

Cold day in hell before I would give a copy of my FFL to anyone other than a licensee. Jack.

Yup. Me, too. Too many stories out there about FFLs with a changed address on them.

Correct me if I am wrong, but no dealer would need to be involved in the sale of a long gun that is legal in the final jurisdiction.

You're wrong. Interstate sales require an FFL.

I order, and 2 seconds after ordering I Email the FFL copy with my order details. Done.

The FFL doesnt have to worry about dealing with that crap and I don't have to worry about the FFL taking a week to send the info. 2 days later I give them $30, do the rransfer and everyone is happy.

And any FFL who's even moderately cautious, like, say, me, will immediately go to the FFL EZChek and make sure that the shipping address is correct. That said, I also don't have bullshit policies like holding onto a gun after the Brady date. But then, I know most of my customers who get delays. (and I keep trying to have them get a UPIN, too.)

Interesting. I've had more than one FFL supply me with copies of their FFL for tansfers. Hell, I saw a gunshop where they had a copy posted on their website for transfers.

I've seen a few shops where you can download their FFL directly from their sites. But I tend to send them an email that the gun is coming, anyway.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Interesting. I've had more than one FFL supply me with copies of their FFL for tansfers. Hell, I saw a gunshop where they had a copy posted on their website for transfers.

OK. So you have a copy of my FFL. Signed (or forged) by me. You go to an obscure gun shop up north. The clerk there sells you a pistol for cash. He puts it in the bound book as a FFL to FFL transfer and files my FFL. On the way home you hold up a convenience store, hop in your car and gutter the gun. The gun is recovered and traced to the gun shop who brought it in from a distributer. ATF goes to the shop where the clerk pulls out my FFL and shows that the transfer was to me. And that's where the buck stops. No thanks. Jack.

 

[ScottS]

OK. So you have a copy of my FFL. Signed (or forged) by me. You go to an obscure gun shop up north. The clerk there sells you a pistol for cash. He puts it in the bound book as a FFL to FFL transfer and files my FFL. On the way home you hold up a convenience store, hop in your car and gutter the gun. The gun is recovered and traced to the gun shop who brought it in from a distributer. ATF goes to the shop where the clerk pulls out my FFL and shows that the transfer was to me. And that's where the buck stops. No thanks. Jack.

I wasn't arguing that you should do it. I have no dog in the fight with you as an FFL. I was just pointing out the difference between "cold day in hell" and the fact many FFLs do it

 

[Dennis in MA]

Hello, LGS?
Yes?
Umm, I’m just wondering, do you have any BS rules?
Let the hilarity begin.

Them: "Yes, I don't answer questions without seeing some ID."

"What?"

Them: "What?"

LOL

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I wasn't arguing that you should do it. I have no dog in the fight with you as an FFL. I was just pointing out the difference between "cold day in hell" and the fact many FFLs do it

I know. No problem. Just an example of what "could go wrong". Jack.

 

[DW357]

If it really takes that long you need to use different dealers. Although most of the decent ones have no problem sending or printing a "FILE COPY ONLY" job to a frequent flier customer for the purpose you indicate. Even without that though, most shops just want to get shit done and as soon as an auction finishes or whatever, that shit gets fired off to the other dealer or
vice versa.

I've got a copy of my go-to dealers FFL. Definitely helps speed things up.

 

[Fixxah]

Pussy.

 

[Broc]

OK. So you have a copy of my FFL. Signed (or forged) by me. You go to an obscure gun shop up north. The clerk there sells you a pistol for cash. He puts it in the bound book as a FFL to FFL transfer and files my FFL. On the way home you hold up a convenience store, hop in your car and gutter the gun. The gun is recovered and traced to the gun shop who brought it in from a distributer. ATF goes to the shop where the clerk pulls out my FFL and shows that the transfer was to me. And that's where the buck stops. No thanks. Jack.

I never thought of that.

Who wants to go to NH buy Desert Eagles?

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Yup, that's Shooter's. One of my NH friends is a cop and personally knows the owner and the owner's son. My friend got delayed trying to buy a Tikka .22-250 of all things. Shooter's answer to not handing over the gun after three days: "we know its the law but we don't do that."

For that and other reasons, I'm glad to never do business with them again.

Nothing worse than a freedom hating shop. f*** them

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

I don't give out my FFL to anyone any more, had mine photoshopped and used to scam people on Armslist. It's happening all over the country right now.

As for OP, it's a pain in the ass but at least you learned where not to go from now on. I still have a guy from April 10th waiting for a response, no F'n way I'd hold it for that long.

 

[zboys]

See, another reason Mass. Is great, had you bought it from another Mass resident you could have left with it same day

 

[Whiskeywon]

I don't give out my FFL to anyone any more, had mine photoshopped and used to scam people on Armslist. It's happening all over the country right now.

As for OP, it's a pain in the ass but at least you learned where not to go from now on. I still have a guy from April 10th waiting for a response, no F'n way I'd hold it for that long.

No kidding, I think the longest I've had one sit open is about a month, but still two things. That transfer is legal and I don't want responsibility for it that long.
Can't believe that's going on three months.

Don't give out mine either mostly because a lot of shops if we're honest don't acknowledge file copy only and take the FFL at face value. Especially if it's valid. So last thing I need is what Jack described above of somebody using it in person (which given the description of the license should make that impossible) to make a purchase that legally is transferred to me.

 

[CrackPot]

I never thought of that.

Who wants to go to NH buy Desert Eagles?

The ATF is now advising that you do NOT give your license out to anyone. I will go find it online if I need too. Photoshop is too easy to use by too many people at this point. Your 8 digits (first 3 last 5) then go to FFLeZCheck 3.1.2 - Federal Firearms License Search and validate the license and it provides the premise and mailing addresses. That is all you need to both send and receive. You do not in fact require an actual copy of the FFL.

The opportunity for fraud is way too high.

 

[Frizzle Fry]

For that and other reasons, I'm glad to never do business with them again.

Be careful saying that on here, the owner might log in and tell you that you have a small penis...

 

[Broc]

The ATF is now advising that you do NOT give your license out to anyone. I will go find it online if I need too. Photoshop is too easy to use by too many people at this point. Your 8 digits (first 3 last 5) then go to FFLeZCheck 3.1.2 - Federal Firearms License Search and validate the license and it provides the premise and mailing addresses. That is all you need to both send and receive. You do not in fact require an actual copy of the FFL.

The opportunity for fraud is way too high.

Good to know.

 

[mikeyp]

OK. So you have a copy of my FFL. Signed (or forged) by me. You go to an obscure gun shop up north. The clerk there sells you a pistol for cash. He puts it in the bound book as a FFL to FFL transfer and files my FFL. On the way home you hold up a convenience store, hop in your car and gutter the gun. The gun is recovered and traced to the gun shop who brought it in from a distributer. ATF goes to the shop where the clerk pulls out my FFL and shows that the transfer was to me. And that's where the buck stops. No thanks. Jack.

I know. No problem. Just an example of what "could go wrong". Jack.

I know you wrote this as a "could go wrong", but has this happened? I'm assuming with handwriting experts and that stuff that eventually it'd be thrown out of court, or the other FFL would get in some sort of trouble, but I can see how it'd be a huge PITA to you to have to prove that you didn't do it, at least time consuming(and possibly expensive with lawyers).

 

[CrackPot]

I know you wrote this as a "could go wrong", but has this happened? I'm assuming with handwriting experts and that stuff that eventually it'd be thrown out of court, or the other FFL would get in some sort of trouble, but I can see how it'd be a huge PITA to you to have to prove that you didn't do it, at least time consuming(and possibly expensive with lawyers).

I have been sent forged/photoshopped FFL licenses from scammers. This is not a theoretical issue

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I know you wrote this as a "could go wrong", but has this happened? I'm assuming with handwriting experts and that stuff that eventually it'd be thrown out of court, or the other FFL would get in some sort of trouble, but I can see how it'd be a huge PITA to you to have to prove that you didn't do it, at least time consuming(and possibly expensive with lawyers).

And the way I operate I don't have to worry about that. If you want me to be more "loose" with my FFL you can put $50k cash in escrow to help if I get into trouble. Jack.

 

[granitestater]

OK. So you have a copy of my FFL. Signed (or forged) by me. You go to an obscure gun shop up north. The clerk there sells you a pistol for cash. He puts it in the bound book as a FFL to FFL transfer and files my FFL. On the way home you hold up a convenience store, hop in your car and gutter the gun. The gun is recovered and traced to the gun shop who brought it in from a distributer. ATF goes to the shop where the clerk pulls out my FFL and shows that the transfer was to me. And that's where the buck stops. No thanks. Jack.

So any person can ship to any FFL in any state. What happens when one of YOUR customers buys a gun on gun broker from another NON FFL. The NON FFL can ship to you. But many advise not to unless they have a signed copy of the FFL.... I have seen several who write on it NO IN PERSON TRANSFERS --- SHIP TO ADDRESS ON LICENSE and also demand photo ID

 

[Dadstoys]

We (Not the imperial we, the state) elect a foaming at the mouth constitution hating , communist fruitcake Who doesn't give two shits about rights or laws and it's the fault of some guy who has his life tied up in his business that has to protect it from said fruitcake.
Does it suck ? Sure it does.
Back when my father and I had an FFL we actually had one incident which if it wasn't a set up by either the Feds or State i'll eat my f*cking hat. ( The nasty one I use for dirty yard chores and seldom wash).

"Hey , so and so sent me over and I wanted to see if we could do some off the books stuff"
It wasn't get out , it was get the f*ck out now."

If this forum even existed back then , I'm sure at least some would be screaming for a boycott of us and wanting to know why we hated freedom so much.

If we don't like the stores policies then shop elsewhere.
Put yourself in the place of someone who hung their ass in the breeze to start up a business not knowing if they were going to make it or fail and then add in half the country that would like to see it burn on top of elected and non elected people who have the power to ruin you just salivating at the chance you f*ck up even in some small way to destroy you.

 

[teamRR]

Keep in mind what the law allows is not "the law".

FFL's need not be equal opportunity businesses - the law specifically allows them to make decisions based on subjective feelings, and a store policy regarding needing a clear proceed is far more objective than some guy acting a "little funny" - which still would be their judgement call to make.

In short, sure, frequent businesses with policies you can live with whenever possible. But an FFL not transferring upon default proceed is also "the law" as much as doing so, both are perfectly legal processes.

 

[CrackPot]

Keep in mind what the law allows is not "the law".

FFL's need not be equal opportunity businesses - the law specifically allows them to make decisions based on subjective feelings, and a store policy regarding needing a clear proceed is far more objective than some guy acting a "little funny" - which still would be their judgement call to make.

In short, sure, frequent businesses with policies you can live with whenever possible. But an FFL not transferring upon default proceed is also "the law" as much as doing so, both are perfectly legal processes.

My brain hurts trying to logically parse this wet noodle.

No one asserted anything unlawful was done. What was asserted is that they did something well above what the law required. 100% agreement that they can make any decisions they want. Decisions and actions have consequences.

 

[drgrant]

We (Not the imperial we, the state) elect a foaming at the mouth constitution hating , communist fruitcake Who doesn't give two shits about rights or laws and it's the fault of some guy who has his life tied up in his business that has to protect it from said fruitcake.
Does it suck ? Sure it does.
Back when my father and I had an FFL we actually had one incident which if it wasn't a set up by either the Feds or State i'll eat my f*cking hat. ( The nasty one I use for dirty yard chores and seldom wash).

"Hey , so and so sent me over and I wanted to see if we could do some off the books stuff"
It wasn't get out , it was get the f*ck out now."

If this forum even existed back then , I'm sure at least some would be screaming for a boycott of us and wanting to know why we hated freedom so much.

If we don't like the stores policies then shop elsewhere.
Put yourself in the place of someone who hung their ass in the breeze to start up a business not knowing if they were going to make it or fail and then add in half the country that would like to see it burn on top of elected and non elected people who have the power to ruin you just salivating at the chance you f*ck up even in some small way to destroy you.

That's cute but someone asking a dealer to do something clearly illegal and someone asking a dealer to do something (a default proceed) which is both

A. clearly legal
and
B. commonly practiced/performed by most dealers without hesitation

Is not even on the same planet as what you and your dad experienced. That's a pretty false equivalency.

Dealers are free to set whatever policies they like, but even insinuating that a default proceed is anything remotely approaching "illegal activity" is absurd.

People get pissy about this default proceed thing because none of the the dealers that do the proceed-camping thing have a big sign up in their shop that says "We do not do default
proceeds, all guns are held pending a final NICS result, no exceptions" .

 

[teamRR]

My brain hurts trying to logically parse this wet noodle.

No one asserted anything unlawful was done. What was asserted is that they did something well above what the law required. 100% agreement that they can make any decisions they want. Decisions and actions have consequences.

Multiple times I read the FFL is "not following the law" in various forms. My point is they are - legal is not the same as what is required.

 

[CrackPot]

Multiple times I read the FFL is "not following the law" in various forms. My point is they are - legal is not the same as what is required.

Semantics. Following the law means doing what the law requires. That is not the same as legal or illegal. They are not "following the law" but following their own extra legal policy. Everything they are doing is lawful. (at least everything being discussed)

 

[Dadstoys]

That's cute but someone asking a dealer to do something clearly illegal and someone asking a dealer to do something (a default proceed) which is both

A. clearly legal
and
B. commonly practiced/performed by most dealers without hesitation

Is not even on the same planet as what you and your dad experienced. That's a pretty false equivalency.

Dealers are free to set whatever policies they like, but even insinuating that a default proceed is anything remotely approaching "illegal activity" is absurd.

People get pissy about this default proceed thing because none of the the dealers that do the proceed-camping thing have a big sign up in their shop that says "We do not do default
proceeds, all guns are held pending a final NICS result, no exceptions" .

Their business, their rules.
I didn't say I like it , but seeing as it's not my ass in the breeze , oh well.
I get where they are coming from. do the proceed after three days because technically it's "legal " and something happens and see how it goes for you.
You'll spent the next two year watching your bank account drop faster than the gas gauge on a top fuel dragster just to prove what you did was legit while every anti DA in the country is going to be lining up to get a piece of your ass because you just had to be the cause of the latest mass shooting even though you broke no law.
Or they could just not do your shitty little 30 dollar transfer and keep a roof over their heads.
It sucks , but there you have it , Reality.

There's jobs my company won't take on based Risk /Reward past experiance.
They never end well and the customer ends up burning your ass online because you couldn't meet their unreasonable expectations.
We don't do em.
If that's a problem , keep scrolling through the yellow pages

 

[ScottS]

And the way I operate I don't have to worry about that. If you want me to be more "loose" with my FFL you can put $50k cash in escrow to help if I get into trouble. Jack.

But no one in this thread has asked you to do that. You're taking this pretty personally given that no one has asked you to change your policy or chastised you for not giving out your FFL.

 

[whacko]

Correct me if I am wrong, but no dealer would need to be involved in the sale of a long gun that is legal in the final jurisdiction.

Consider yourself corrected. If the buyer and seller are from 2 different states an ffl needs to be involved even for a long gun. Being wrong on this one could get you a felony charge.

A long gun buyer can "cash and carry" out of an ffl shop in another state if the buyer is legal to own in the state of residence.....but an ffl needs to do the transfer.

A handgun must be picked up by the buyer at an ffl located in the buyers home state. I think that is where you are confused.

A private sale of a long gun definitely requires an ffl to be involved if the buyer and seller are from different states.