FFL license

This is a zoning issue, not an ATF issue. ATF only requires the place of business be legally zoned for the FFLs business.

Exactly. And believe me. The ATF checks up on zoning. It is not unusual for the ATF to go in person to the applicant's town hall to confirm that the permits or approvals they submit with an application are genuine.

Zoning is THE KEY ISSUE when considering a FFL. Once you have zoning, its simply a process in which you put time and money in one end, and a license comes out the other. Like i said above, the only other hurdle is that you can't give the ATF reason to doubt that you are going to engage in actual commerce in firearms. It doesn't have to be a lot of commerce. There are plenty of FFL's who sell 25 guns a year.
 
Really? All I ever see on GB are hundreds of listings with "0" bids on them.. I am not saying it isn't a viable way to sell product.. but it doesn't seem like a way one could make a living.. unless you're a huge shop who can just churn.. but I am getting off topic on somethign I am purely curious about.

People sometimes use GE and GB as product showcases more than a direct venue to actually sell guns. How much effort do you think it takes for the buyer to look up the shop out of band and just call them up? Everyone wants a better deal, Particularly skinflints in america.

-Mike
 
People sometimes use GE and GB as product showcases more than a direct venue to actually sell guns. How much effort do you think it takes for the buyer to look up the shop out of band and just call them up? Everyone wants a better deal, Particularly skinflints in america.

-Mike

That's how I got my pre-ban Galil and dealing direct I negotiated a price 15% lower than the listing. That's not insignificant savings on a gun that inexpensive. So call me skinflint if you'd like! [laugh]
 
Michaela Dunne is on the record as acknowledging that a home based FFL is legal within the Commonwealth's laws, as long as the holder does not intend to engage in retail firearms sales or gunsmithing out of his house.

Don
For those that missed the memo, Michela Dunne is the director of the Firearms Records Bureau.'

Fortunately, she is pretty much a straight shooter and does not have a general program of "expanding the law" (though I am not sure under whose dynasty the infamous, an erroneous, "pre ban mags mus have been in MA before the ban" letter when out). She also sends a team to the Marlborough gun shows to look up LTC PINs for the forgetful.
 
For those that missed the memo, Michela Dunne is the director of the Firearms Records Bureau.'

Fortunately, she is pretty much a straight shooter and does not have a general program of "expanding the law" (though I am not sure under whose dynasty the infamous, an erroneous, "pre ban mags mus have been in MA before the ban" letter when out). She also sends a team to the Marlborough gun shows to look up LTC PINs for the forgetful.

I AM SURE of who was behind the infamous memo. It certainly wasn't Michaela. She tries to be helpful to us, within the strictures of the org that she works for.
 
The State Department and the ATF have different definitions of manufacturing. ITAR is payed to and enforced by the state department. Some pay, some don't. If you don't your risky serious penalties.

There is an FFL in another state that got in writing from the state department saying he did not have to pay ITAR for his specific manufacturing. It's a glimmer of hope for 07s, but it is such a controversial issue that everyone does their own thing.
 
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Is an ITAR fee required if not buying/selling internationally?

Yes. In fact, ITAR regulations say that only a single instance of manufacturing is required in order for registration to be required. In order to avoid ITAR fees, one would need to apply for an exemption and it isn't clear how one would go about doing that. ITAR is a terrible thing, and it is surprising that more people are not aware of it. Those who manufacture ammunition, or even components, are also required to register, and the DoS is beginning to tighten the noose.
 
The State Department and the ATF have different definitions of manufacturing. ITAR is payed to and enforced by the state department. Some pay, some don't. If you don't your risky serious penalties.

There is an FFL in another state that got in writing from the state department saying he did not have to pay ITAR for his specific manufacturing. It's a glimmer of hope for 07s, but it is such a controversial issue that everyone does their own thing.

Here is the registration requirement : http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...0a&node=22:1.0.1.13.59&rgn=div5#se22.1.122_13

Here is the list of covered articles: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9cc5df41a180750a&node=22:1.0.1.13.58&rgn=div5
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]


Probably because have a second structure on their property with its own address.
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]

Could they be grandfathered in from the good old days?? I'm not sure if they allow grandfathering or upon renewal require changes to be made.
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]

I think it depends how anti your chief is! My town is extremely strict and hates all businesses, yet some 15 years ago my town clerk told me that we had 750 registered (with town) businesses in town (almost all in homes). That number didn't include corporations (they register only with the state) or those of us who operate a business under our own name (MA business registration law is an "alias" law, not required if the business includes your own name).

As someone who worked with the planning board in town for 25 years on business/commercial issues, I have very carefully read our bylaws. Basically if you have no (or very limited number, I think it is NMT 4) employees, most businesses that don't generate a ton of car traffic at the same time are allowed to be run out of a residentially zoned property. So as long as the chief wouldn't object, one could legally run a gun shop out of your residential address. That said, IIRC the 1998 law said that the building could not be a residence . . . so a favorable interpretation is that if you have a separate entrance and a separate door into the living quarters, you can be in compliance with the 1998 law. So an unattached (or attached by a breezeway) garage or large shed could be perfectly legal. If you set an address of 123-A for that building, it's further proof that it isn't the same as the residence.

If your chief is an a-hole that doesn't want gun shops in your town, he really doesn't need any reason to refuse to grant you the state license.

Also there are many homes that are in commercially zoned locations. IIRC Adam's house in Plympton was one such example, thus making it easier to get licensed.


Are you the guy operating out of the tree house? Jack.

Whatever works!! [laugh2]
 
Probably because have a second structure on their property with its own address.
Not according to my Googling of their listed street addresses. Somehow these "show only" (or show + GB/GA/GI) dealers are able to get around the zoning requirement. I'll love to know the trick of it so I could maybe someday do it myself. [grin]
 
I think it depends how anti your chief is!
... not to mention the town fathers and other influential business folks. [wink]

Also there are many homes that are in commercially zoned locations. IIRC Adam's house in Plympton was one such example, thus making it easier to get licensed.
That's certainly a possibility. [grin]
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]

They do it under a portion of their town's zoning regs that relate to a "customary home occupation" or sometimes simply "home occupation". The definition does not say what the business can and can't be. It says what the business can and can't do.

Typically it says things like this.
A maximum of X number of parking spaces for employees.
A maximum number of X visitors per day. (some say no retail operations at all)
No excessive sound, effluent, fumes, vapors, steam, etc.
No signage or restrictions on signage.

The general rule of thumb is that you can't do anything that would "detract from the residential nature of the neighborhood".

One of the restrictions that zoning folks used to like to throw on was UPS deliveries.
Now that we live in the era of Amazon prime, when I had over 100 Amazon deliveries in 2014, this doesn't hold much water.

Don

p.s. If you want to see how your town's language is worded, go to your town's website and locate the zoning department. Download the PDF of your zoning regs and search on "home occupation". You will find what you need.
 
I think it depends how anti your chief is! My town is extremely strict and hates all businesses, yet some 15 years ago my town clerk told me that we had 750 registered (with town) businesses in town (almost all in homes). That number didn't include corporations (they register only with the state) or those of us who operate a business under our own name (MA business registration law is an "alias" law, not required if the business includes your own name).

As someone who worked with the planning board in town for 25 years on business/commercial issues, I have very carefully read our bylaws. Basically if you have no (or very limited number, I think it is NMT 4) employees, most businesses that don't generate a ton of car traffic at the same time are allowed to be run out of a residentially zoned property. So as long as the chief wouldn't object, one could legally run a gun shop out of your residential address. That said, IIRC the 1998 law said that the building could not be a residence . . . so a favorable interpretation is that if you have a separate entrance and a separate door into the living quarters, you can be in compliance with the 1998 law. So an unattached (or attached by a breezeway) garage or large shed could be perfectly legal. If you set an address of 123-A for that building, it's further proof that it isn't the same as the residence.

If your chief is an a-hole that doesn't want gun shops in your town, he really doesn't need any reason to refuse to grant you the state license.

Also there are many homes that are in commercially zoned locations. IIRC Adam's house in Plympton was one such example, thus making it easier to get licensed.




Whatever works!! [laugh2]

Don't forget that all of the issues with compliance with the state law requiring a separate structure don't come into play if you do not intend to get a state firearms resellers license. Without which, you can still sell interstate and wholesale.

Also, the PD has absolutely no say, legally speaking, as to who gets a FFL and who doesn't. The reality is that most zoning folks run it by the PD. If the PD is against it, you could still push ahead, although it would be more difficult. If you went to court and got an impartial judge, as unlikely as it may be, you would win.

Don
 
I am aware of several MA FFLs who hold licenses at their home addresses in residential neighborhoods. These dealers sell at the shows and via the 'Net (GB/GA/GI) exclusively. How are they able to do that given the commercial/industrial zoning requirement? [thinking]

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how they are doing that. The ATF won't give you a FFL if you sell primarily at gun shows. So when they applied, they would have had to include the intent to sell on GB or Armslist.

If they go to gunshows as a FFL without a state licenes. (at least for MA FFLs), then they are still limited to 4 firearms per year.

The ability to sell more than 4 firearms per year comes from having the MA dealer license. Without it, even a FFL is limited to 4 per year.

Don
 
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how they are doing that. The ATF won't give you a FFL if you sell primarily at gun shows. So when they applied, they would have had to include the intent to sell on GB or Armslist.

If they go to gunshows as a FFL without a state licenes. (at least for MA FFLs), then they are still limited to 4 firearms per year.

The ability to sell more than 4 firearms per year comes from having the MA dealer license. Without it, even a FFL is limited to 4 per year.

Don

I believe its you can sell 4 privately without the transfer happening through a FFL (thus no background check bs and fees) However if you are the FFL you would transfer through your books just like any other transfer and do the appropriate EFA10 paperwork
 
I believe its you can sell 4 privately without the transfer happening through a FFL (thus no background check bs and fees) However if you are the FFL you would transfer through your books just like any other transfer and do the appropriate EFA10 paperwork

But unless you have a state license, you are limited to 4 firearms per year. Even if you do a 4473 and a NICS check to stay in compliance with Federal law.

There is no way around it. Without a state license nobody, even an FFL, can sell more than 4 firearms per year without going through someone with a state license.
 
But unless you have a state license, you are limited to 4 firearms per year. Even if you do a 4473 and a NICS check to stay in compliance with Federal law.

There is no way around it. Without a state license nobody, even an FFL, can sell more than 4 firearms per year without going through someone with a state license.
So what you're saying is people in the classifieds that are selling/have sold their 4 and now need to do their transfers through an FFL are [emoji15] 'breaking the law'
 
So what you're saying is people in the classifieds that are selling/have sold their 4 and now need to do their transfers through an FFL are [emoji15] 'breaking the law'

No, not really. He's saying that non MA licensed dealers can't really sell stuff at MA gun shows because they'd blow out their transfer limit pretty quickly.

-Mike
 
Oh wait I get it now I kept thinking of it in a private manner for non FFL people. I see what he means. The first thought immediately following the realization was "that's stupid."
 
six pages and we've yet to hear from op again…so much of this thread is just banter between people… op come back and post some more info to narrow down the scope of "ffl license"
 
No, not really. He's saying that non MA licensed dealers can't really sell stuff at MA gun shows because they'd blow out their transfer limit pretty quickly.

-Mike

So what you're saying is people in the classifieds that are selling/have sold their 4 and now need to do their transfers through an FFL are [emoji15] 'breaking the law'

But I'm also saying that YES. People who sell guns in the classified can only legally sell 4 guns per year. After that they have to go through a dealer.

This is pretty basic MA law stuff.
 
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how they are doing that. The ATF won't give you a FFL if you sell primarily at gun shows. So when they applied, they would have had to include the intent to sell on GB or Armslist.

If they go to gunshows as a FFL without a state licenses. (at least for MA FFLs), then they are still limited to 4 firearms per year.

The ability to sell more than 4 firearms per year comes from having the MA dealer license. Without it, even a FFL is limited to 4 per year.

Don
I have only purchased from one of the three FFLs I am thinking of, but at least two of the three absolutely are 100% legit MA FFL's and I'd be shocked if that weren't the case for the third one. These are not individuals selling as individuals or individuals selling under someone else's MA FFL. No, I don't know how they got around the commercial/industrial zoned building requirement if they, in fact, did so. All I know is that they have told me they don't have shops and sell at the shows and on-line (to other dealers) exclusively. These folks are well known to anyone who has attended a MA gun show in the last couple years and halfway paid attention. How do they do that? I haven't a clue.
 
If they sold at retail to you from their home and sell at gun shows regularly, then they must have a state license. How they got it with a home location is not something I'm going to question. Congratulations to them.
 
If they sold at retail to you from their home and sell at gun shows regularly, then they must have a state license. How they got it with a home location is not something I'm going to question. Congratulations to them.
Not to belabor this any further (but for clarity) none of them have sold to me from their home. They claim to do show sales only plus Internet to/from other dealers.
 
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