Fatal Incident at CA USPSA Match

[peterthefish]

More info here: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1291864

It appears that the bays used by USPSA matches are directly downrange of other bays open to the public. A round hit the wall at the top of the berm behind the USPSA shooter and deflected down, striking and killing the participant.

Always good to anticipate Fudd blowback - the errant round in question didn't come from a USPSA shooter, who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Also an interesting study in the possible ramifications of random penetrable barriers used at ranges.

 

[groundscrapers]

This range design seems like a bad idea.

 

[Ink]

god, that's horrible. what a stupid layout for a range!!
makes me think of the matches at new bedford on stage 1 when you would hear an errant ricochet from the rifle range whizz over head once in a great while tho.....

 

[MarkT]

This range design seems like a bad idea.

I agree. Logic would dictate that the range with the "A" "R" be pointing in the other direction. But we can't see the full picture in that image and hindsight is 20/20.

What an unfortunate event. I feel badly for the family and all involved.

 

[knfmn]

That's awful. Hopefully the persons family will find some peace, along with the shooter. I can't imagine being the guy who fired the round. :/

 

[whacko]

Are those lanes actually pointed in the same direction!?!

 

[snax]

You cant really make out topography either. One range may be considerably lower in elevation too.

 

[Olympus Racing]

You cant really make out topography either. One range may be considerably lower in elevation too.

Does it matter? Why would you put them like that?
it has terrible idea written all over it i

 

[goodlife30]

Don't worry CA will fix it by banning all of these matches. Sarcasm aside, who the hell would want to be down range of an active course even with barriers?

 

[CrackPot]

Ever shoot a match at Harvard Sportsmens Club? You are dead down range from the 200yrd range/berm for the 65yrd pit and the adjacent pit is not far off angle from that. Pits sitting behind berms with shooting all in the same direction happens all over the place. It is the only way to use space.

We lack enough knowledge to understand how probable this outcome was versus a total freak accident.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5149785,-71.5271374,207m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

[beergut]

ugh. horrible design and so tragic. seems like one row should be facing the opposite direction.
I remember being down range at Marine Corps boot camp and being on target detail- having all those bullets whizzing a few feet overhead while we all sat behind the berm waiting to swap out the shooters target- was a vivid and surreal experience.

 

[peterthefish]

A lot of comments re: range design. Apparently it's a fairly common design - even a range designed by an NSSF engineer shares the basic range downrange of another design. I don't think it's inherently bad either. In fact, the only fault I see is allowing rifles to be used in the ranges that are shooting towards the forward bays. A pistol round, after a ricochet, would be much less likely to have enough energy to do as much damage.

If anyone shoots USPSA with targets on the side berms, you've already shot when people are aiming in your general direction, separated only by berms. Heck, even steel matches which use a 180 rule allow people to theoretically aim / fire into a side berm with people in a bay one berm over.

It makes me wonder about the possible unforeseen impact that No Blue Sky systems made of penetrable barriers could have. A plywood NBS roof struck with a rifle round could send that round in unpredictable directions. So if there's a clear line from any point on a penetrable member of a NBS system to another bay, is that another potential accident waiting to happen?

 

[Ink]

rumor on calguns was an ar pistol used on a handgun only range.... that and shooter error hitting the top of the berm. Ive been on ranges where they are shooting into the berm you are behind...never bothered me and it's tough to tell with this one without being there, how large these ranges are and elevation , berm height...whatever.

just horrible, regardless. but it seems this was an ongoing problem, people complaining about being hit with ricochets.
i just fell horrible for everyone involved.

 

[Asaltweapon]

This range design seems like a bad idea.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Asaltweapon]

Ever shoot a match at Harvard Sportsmens Club? You are dead down range from the 200yrd range/berm for the 65yrd pit and the adjacent pit is not far off angle from that. Pits sitting behind berms with shooting all in the same direction happens all over the place. It is the only way to use space.

We lack enough knowledge to understand how probable this outcome was versus a total freak accident.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5149785,-71.5271374,207m/data=!3m1!1e3

Yes I've heard the bees overhead but I think the backstop for that range is further down so no ricochet threat . Always wondered what the elevation difference was

 

[bigblue]

Ever shoot a match at Harvard Sportsmens Club? You are dead down range from the 200yrd range/berm for the 65yrd pit and the adjacent pit is not far off angle from that. Pits sitting behind berms with shooting all in the same direction happens all over the place. It is the only way to use space.

We lack enough knowledge to understand how probable this outcome was versus a total freak accident.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5149785,-71.5271374,207m/data=!3m1!1e3

This is exactly what I was thinking when I first saw this range layout. Standing by that berm, you can hear the ricochets whizzing overhead. While logic dictates that I ricochet would go over your head, clearly physics disagrees in Kalifornia.

rumor on calguns was an ar pistol used on a handgun only range.... that and shooter error hitting the top of the berm. Ive been on ranges where they are shooting into the berm you are behind...never bothered me and it's tough to tell with this one without being there, how large these ranges are and elevation , berm height...whatever.

just horrible, regardless. but it seems this was an ongoing problem, people complaining about being hit with ricochets.
i just fell horrible for everyone involved.

If this is true, that range is in for a legal fight.

 

[NHCraigT]

Horrible accident.

Feel bad for the family of the person that got killed, and bad for the person that fired the round.

 

[JAD]

ugh. horrible design and so tragic. seems like one row should be facing the opposite direction.
I remember being down range at Marine Corps boot camp and being on target detail- having all those bullets whizzing a few feet overhead while we all sat behind the berm waiting to swap out the shooters target- was a vivid and surreal experience.

The first time I pulled pits at a high power match, it was a really surreal experience- especially when you would here the sonic crack of the round going overhead. Even though there was a good barrier (berm backed with concrete) I was sure that I was going to get taken out. At some point during the relay, a sense of comfort set in- which is also scary- because as irrational as some of the earlier fears are, complacency facilitates accidents.

 

[Da_lucche]

rumor on calguns was an ar pistol used on a handgun only range.... that and shooter error hitting the top of the berm. Ive been on ranges where they are shooting into the berm you are behind...never bothered me and it's tough to tell with this one without being there, how large these ranges are and elevation , berm height...whatever.

just horrible, regardless. but it seems this was an ongoing problem, people complaining about being hit with ricochets.
i just fell horrible for everyone involved.

I'm gonna assume that a handgun only range probably isn't set up to handle the range or ballistics of a rifle round? If this rumor holds, the guy using the AR pistol is a scumbag of the highest order.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[DSM_1]

crazy how a design like this gets approved.

 

[mac1911]

sort of takes the
know whats beyound your target rule to a new level.
Seems most newer pits to accommodate more lanes and conserve space are designed like this.
Im not huge fan and dont know what to tell you.

its tough for everyone
I often think of the many ways to be taken out. You could just as easily been in a car accident or slip in your bathroom.

I have this thing in my head that rifles should not be used on such short ranges if there are other pits directly behind.

my only curiosity is how far back was the shooter from the berm.
We had to move the LEO training up to the 50 yard line at the club for the lack of being able to keep the rounds on the berm. From what I hear they still find away to get up over a 40' towering burm 50 yards out.

 

[Koolmoose]

In the ongoing saga of the closed Barnstable range, one of the complaints by the antis and the NIMBY's (often the same people) has been that there are walking trails behind, but not right behind the berms. Potential accidents like this were cited as a reason not to reopen the range, even though no accidents had ever occurred. The berms are quite high. IIRC part of the range redesign was to increase the height even further.

 

[MarkT]

This is where the range is located. You can see images of the range on the bottom of the map, but its difficult to tell which part of the range you are looking at, but it does appear that each berm also includes a high wall.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...f6509!8m2!3d33.9237713!4d-117.6195685!6m1!1e1

 

[MarkT]

This is where the range is located. You can see images of the range on the bottom of the map, but its difficult to tell which part of the range you are looking at, but it does appear that each berm also includes a high wall.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/M...f6509!8m2!3d33.9237713!4d-117.6195685!6m1!1e1

The attached images is from Google Earth, which may or may not be an accurate reflection of berm height.

 

[Greschner 4]

This could potentially be a mess for the club, the BOD, and the definitely for the (liability) insurer.

 

[free]

What makes you think that?

 

[BostonBullit]

I'm gonna assume that a handgun only range probably isn't set up to handle the range or ballistics of a rifle round? If this rumor holds, the guy using the AR pistol is a scumbag of the highest order.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Most people simply don't think about what they're doing and/or have the knowledge to fully understand a situation. The educated will know the REASON that the range is pistol only and abide by the intent of the restriction. Those that play checkers because they are not capable playing chess simply say "it says pistols only and this AR is a pistol so I'm good to go". A shitty incident all around, a guy gets killed and it will be used to show that the sport is dangerous even though 99% of the people participating in the sport are the safest people on the range

 

[snax]

Most people simply don't think about what they're doing and/or have the knowledge to fully understand a situation. The educated will know the REASON that the range is pistol only and abide by the intent of the restriction. Those that play checkers because they are not capable playing chess simply say "it says pistols only and this AR is a pistol so I'm good to go". A shitty incident all around, a guy gets killed and it will be used to show that the sport is dangerous even though 99% of the people participating in the sport are the safest people on the range

I go to an indoor pistol/handgun range that allows .22LR rifles as well. I don't know how many times I've had to tell people that AR "pistols" are not included. It's a short range with concrete walls. And they are just way too loud, even with protection.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

It just seems like a freak accident. The berms at the front range should either stop a round, or, if someone is shooting too high, have it go over the heads of the people on the rear range. It's just one of those "one in a million times" that the round actually hit "just right" to ricochet right down, and "just right" where someone was located, and had "just enough" energy left to kill them. The Casa Grande range in Arizona had two ranges side-by-side. Police and civilian. If you go to the farther targets on the civilian side (298 yards out), the elevation is higher than the police range. Someone was firing full auto at the PD range, and bullets were ricocheting down on me on the civilian range, near the farther targets. One hit me in the a**. Luckily, I have a fat a** and it was only a painful sting!

 

[Ink]

The attached images is from Google Earth, which may or may not be an accurate reflection of berm height.

maybe its the perspective but those berms look very low.........