Factory vs Custom 1911s.

dcmdon

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Hi all,

I just got back from a 2 day Reflexive Shooting class at Sig. It was great. Over the course of 2 days, we shot about 1500 rounds. (target saturation was part of most drills, which meant 3-5 shots)

One of the attendees brought 2 of his favorite 1911s. The first was a modern Sig 1911 with the evil, created by Lucifer himself, external extractor.
He ran this for the first day with no failures of any kind.

On the second day he intended to run his custom Colt 1911 that had been customized by a prominent CT based 1911 gunsmith. As the gun got dirtier and hotter, he began to experience failures to feed and extract. Eventually he gave up on it.

This got me thinking about the reliability of many one off 1911s. How many makers take the time to torture test the way they build 1911s. How many run them with a wide range of ammo and hot dirty guns?

I don't have an answer, but I thought it would be an interesting discussion.

For what its worth, I ran my Glock 19. I used my Crossbreed Supertuck IWB holster with my shirt over it, since this is actually something I carry. I used it until I couldn't take it any longer, having rubbed the side of my back raw with my thumb nail every time I drew.

Then I switched to a Safariland ALS retention holster I also use when I'm in CT and don't care about being "made". Other than me, everything worked flawlessly. I had zero failures of any kind with the G19.

All the hardware worked flawlessly. The software . . that was another story.

Don
 
There's a reason most LEOs carry striker fired polymer guns. I get that there is a big market and following for 1911's, but when push comes to shove they simply are not as reliable as Glocks/M&Ps/etc, even in stock form.
 
Its not that simple.

My favorite gun is my 1911 Les Baer in .45 ACP. It has run thousands of rounds without any kind of failure. I'd guess 5000. It has about 12,000 rounds through it.

But it is a factory gun. Not a one off custom.

I don't know how it would have done if left dirty. Again, I didn't really intend this to be a 1911 vs other type of discussion.
Remember, the first example of reliability I used was a production Sig 1911.

It is more a mater of custom vs factory. At least that's where I'd like to keep it focused.

Don
 
IMHO with custom 1911s its probably a matter of how the gun is built, who built it, what size it is, what the barrel/bushing/etc fitment is, etc. If someone builds a match grade bullseye gun thats tight as a drum in every aspect, I bet that thing won't make it past 500 rounds without needing a cleaning or at least a dose of lube along the way. On the other hand my slopbucket Caspian-Auto-Ordnanace-franken-1911 would probably make it to 1000 rounds long as it stays lubed. I routinely abused that thing something fierce.

Back when I had my Krapbers the original one I had (Kimber CCT) would run a long time without ****ing up. The 2nd Krapber (2004 Anniv Edition, series 70 style) would get to about 600-ish rounds before it started to have issues. Those were pretty much "factory" guns.

No 1911 will ever compare to something like a G21 or a HK USP though, or a Sig P220, in terms of reliability. I mean that kinda goes without saying, I think when it comes to dirt etc any of the "linkless browning type" guns are going to do better than 1911s. Any 1911 I've ever had, I can drive it to fail in a few range trips. I have a DW Specialist coming, I'm tempted to run it a bit, clean and lube it, and then run it till it fails just to see how long it can go, but I dunno if I can withstand putting a gun like that in the safe dirty. The Glocks I don't care about... that gun though, different story. [laugh]

FWIW when we're talking things like Less Beer, DW, Ed Brown, STI, etc.... I'd almost put these guns in the realm of being "semi custom" more than factory. Most of those brands are probably fitted by hand intensely at one point or another. When I think "factory" I think some guy slapped together some parts, maybe blasted 5 rounds through it and threw it in a box with some lube on it.

-Mike
 
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I think when it comes to 1911s tolerances are the most crucial aspect for reliability/ dependability. A stocker being mass produced is going to looser when it comes to fitted parts to take into account production variances. They're going to be more forgiving all around. Handcrafted masterpieces look sexy and feel sexy but are susceptible to getting gummed up due to debris having nowhere to escape to or to allow buildup.
 
I guess it depends on what the end use of the gun is -- if you get a high speed low drag custom gun (of any sort) built to run something like IDPA/USPSA where you know it only has to run for 50-60rds at a time without maintenance, you can probably sacrifice some reliability for speed/weight/trigger pull/etc.

If you expect your pistol to go thousands and thousands of rounds with zero maintenance, you'll give up some of the high speed/low drag for robustness.

I have no idea on actual numbers for 1911s -- what's a generally accepted number of rounds they'll eat with zero maintenance and be considered reliable? 500? 1000? 2000?
 
I think when it comes to 1911s tolerances are the most crucial aspect for reliability/ dependability. A stocker being mass produced is going to looser when it comes to fitted parts to take into account production variances. They're going to be more forgiving all around. Handcrafted masterpieces look sexy and feel sexy but are susceptible to getting gummed up due to debris having nowhere to escape to or to allow buildup.

The funny thing is I think in some cases a poorly made factory gun can have tolerances that stack badly in one area and make a gun less reliable. Several years ago at a bowling pin shoot I saw an SW1911 standard 5" that was ****ing up a lot. The owner took the gun off the line and stripped it....turned out that the gun was fitted so poorly it was rounding the lugs off on the barrel. I think S&W fixed it for him by basically replacing the whole upper and redoing it, but that particular gun was atrocious.

-Mike
 
My only beef with 1911's is the mindset that you either have to buy a Wilson or a Brown to be serious, or that its totally acceptable to spend 1K on a 1911 and have to send it back to make it right because it wasn't one of the aforementioned pistols.
 
I would like to hear a full story, history of the custom gun and rounds fired. I bought a low end Springfield 1911 and the gun runs like a champ. Friend brought out a new Custom Kimber with all the bells and whistles and we bench shot the guns to compare. He used ball 230 and I used 200 grain target ammo, the Springfield out shot the kimber. Lots of things make the 1911 run or not run, shoot straight or not shoot straight. I like a full story.
 
I guess it depends on what the end use of the gun is -- if you get a high speed low drag custom gun (of any sort) built to run something like IDPA/USPSA where you know it only has to run for 50-60rds at a time without maintenance, you can probably sacrifice some reliability for speed/weight/trigger pull/etc.

If you expect your pistol to go thousands and thousands of rounds with zero maintenance, you'll give up some of the high speed/low drag for robustness.

I have no idea on actual numbers for 1911s -- what's a generally accepted number of rounds they'll eat with zero maintenance and be considered reliable? 500? 1000? 2000?

My only beef with 1911's is the mindset that you either have to buy a Wilson or a Brown to be serious, or that its totally acceptable to spend 1K on a 1911 and have to send it back to make it right because it wasn't one of the aforementioned pistols.

Thorax - I've probably run my Baer 1500 rounds between cleanings. Its been totally reliable. But I also clean it a lot more than i clean my Glocks. But its also capable of one hole groups offhand at 10 yards, when I do my part.

Stape - there is a middle ground, much less money than what you mentioned and much better than some of the worse 1K 1911s.

At the low end, Rugers and imported Springfields are very reliable. Moving up into the mid range, Dan Wesson is a heck of a deal. Especially their Heritage series RZ45, with a street price of $1100 is a smoking deal. Moving up into the high "teens" you have Les Baer. The Baer is not nicely finished at all. The DWs will give an Ed Brown a run for their money, and the Ruger is . . well, its a Ruger. But at $600 with a lifetime warranty from SR and a record for reliability, you could do a lot worse.
 
I've always liked the Ruger. I like the clean traditional lines of ole slab sides. I've shot one many many times and I like it, but I've got a decent 1911 inventory and can't see the need for another. Out of Colts and a Yost build, and many others in between, my favorites are a Kimber Classic Target Series 1, and amazingly, and old Norinco I bought from a Pawn shop in Texas LNIB for 275.00. That thing runs like a champ and has never let me down. If you can get over the "Made in China" though. Norincos are well known for being made from great steel and built like brick shithouses, and are the base for many nice custom builds. I've thought about doing just that, but I have so much fun with it just the way it is.
 
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