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Face to face lower receiver transfer in MA
- Thread starter CTBEA
- Start date
Verify that buyer has LTC, exchange money for lower, have a nice day!
If you feel like having a record of the transaction, create two Bill of Sales and keep one copy for your records.
To be clear, an FA-10 is only required for complete, functional rifles/shotguns/"firearms"/etc.
if the lower was ever built into a complete firearm and an FA10 was done on it, its now a firearm even if it has been broken back down to a lower IIRC and a FA10 should be done to transfer to a new owner.. If not MLABoss is correct. IANAL
goodzilla
NES Member
Four Seasons filed an FA10 on my lower when I got it from the 2012 group buy. I'm thinking of selling it, and also intend to do an FA10 to record the transfer. This seems to vary based on where you purchased (thanks MA!). What did the dealer do when you purchased the lower?
dcmdon
NES Member
Lower doesn't even need a LTC. Its not a firearm by MA law. Its a firearm part. I'm not sure if you need something for a part, but if its anything, its only a FID.
The feds don't care about secondary transfers.
Can someone please provide a citation for the idea that if its ever had an FA10 filed, then it must have one on every subsequent transfer. I'm about 75% sure thats not true.
If its not capable of firing a shot, its not a firearm and doesn't need a FA10 as I understand it.
The answer is as easy as a call to the FRB. i've spoken with them about transferring lowers. They don't want the FA10s. Its not about playing ffast and loose in a grey area. They really DON'T want you to file an FA10 until its built into a functional firearm.
The feds don't care about secondary transfers.
Can someone please provide a citation for the idea that if its ever had an FA10 filed, then it must have one on every subsequent transfer. I'm about 75% sure thats not true.
If its not capable of firing a shot, its not a firearm and doesn't need a FA10 as I understand it.
The answer is as easy as a call to the FRB. i've spoken with them about transferring lowers. They don't want the FA10s. Its not about playing ffast and loose in a grey area. They really DON'T want you to file an FA10 until its built into a functional firearm.
1st bolded point - You are 100% correct wrt MGLs. BUT if some FFL did file an FA-10 on a lower and you sell it and don't, it will be in the database and they will come looking for you. So to get it out of your name, IMNSHO it is wise to continue the error and file another FA-10 to prove you got rid of it. In MA if anyone thinks that any PD will TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT, if they have a print-out with your name associated with any gun you no longer have and they will "just go away" without inflicting pain on you (perhaps charging C. 269 S. 10 for failure to turn over what you don't have and let the courts sort it out), I have a bridge you can buy cheap! [e.g. Casual discussion with the Lt. who setup Lt.Col. Dave Grossman's class yesterday he told me that any PD could pull a list of EVERYTHING YOU OWNED at any time. My response (he's a younger guy) was NOT REALLY, some of us were in this before the start date of computerized records . . . and of course some were sold. Yes, the police largely believe that the FRB list is 100% accurate!]
2nd bolded point - True but some FFLs insist on polluting the database with these FA-10s. At one time Jason Guida's people were screening the hardcopies and trashing these, but he told me he had to give that up with reduced manpower and increased # FA-10s coming in. With MIRCS, if they fill in all the data, nobody sees it and chances are it's in the database forever.
dcmdon
NES Member
Len, so would you advise doing a FA10 if you sold a gun that is "registered" with the state to an out of state buyer?
Reminder to those who may not know this, you can ship the gun out interstate without using a FFL on your end. It just has to be shipped to a licensee, will do the transfer to the buyer.
Reminder to those who may not know this, you can ship the gun out interstate without using a FFL on your end. It just has to be shipped to a licensee, will do the transfer to the buyer.
Yes, only to get it out of my name . . . or get some proof of the transaction so my ass isn't sitting at a PD being interrogated for hours. So a receipt from out-of-state FFL would suffice as proof. Just keep in mind that the Certified List of guns you own never comes into play until you are in a courtroom . . . the PD will always do a run of all guns you EVER OWNED and really expect you to have all of them . . . when they come a'knockin!
dcmdon
NES Member
Interesting, I was stopped by a Conservation Officer in CT when i was target shooting.
I thought I was on a friend's private property but had wandered onto state land. He asked me for my pistol permit and thats when i realized i didn't have my wallet.
I gave him my info and he ran everything. He was very pleasant and professional. When he ran my name, it came up with a huge number of guns in my name.
He smiled when he heard the number. He told me that all LEOs in CT understand that because secondary transfers of long guns can (not anymore) be completed between non-licensees without any government knowledge, the list was so flawed as to be nearly useless.
In the end, he wrote me a ticket for failure to carry my PP but then told me that if I went to court and presented my PP to the prosecutor he would dismiss the charges. Which is what happened.
I suspect that this expectation will change over time in CT now that all transfers need to be cleared through the state NICS system. In 20 years, there will be cops who wont have ever known anything different. I'm sure that even then, Conservation Officers will still be the "coolest" of all the LEOs in CT. I've never met an idiot CO.
I thought I was on a friend's private property but had wandered onto state land. He asked me for my pistol permit and thats when i realized i didn't have my wallet.
I gave him my info and he ran everything. He was very pleasant and professional. When he ran my name, it came up with a huge number of guns in my name.
He smiled when he heard the number. He told me that all LEOs in CT understand that because secondary transfers of long guns can (not anymore) be completed between non-licensees without any government knowledge, the list was so flawed as to be nearly useless.
In the end, he wrote me a ticket for failure to carry my PP but then told me that if I went to court and presented my PP to the prosecutor he would dismiss the charges. Which is what happened.
I suspect that this expectation will change over time in CT now that all transfers need to be cleared through the state NICS system. In 20 years, there will be cops who wont have ever known anything different. I'm sure that even then, Conservation Officers will still be the "coolest" of all the LEOs in CT. I've never met an idiot CO.
I have personally had over 1/2 dozen lowers fa10'd to me at a local shop in the past few years. I personally checked last week of firearms registered to me via the state's database. None of the lowers were there registered to me. Maybe there is a backlog someplace. I can understand how this can be when using a paper fa10, but these were electronic. Go figure.
Dave
Hmm, maybe they "auto delete" rather than fight with the FFLs to do the right thing?
EJFudd
NES Member
Okay, my stupid question of the day: How would the state's people know that it was a lower only vs. a completed gun?
When some dealers report: Bbl length = 0.0", etc.
Other dealers make shit up, putting a description of a fully built gun on the form, in which case they are lying (perjury) but no way FRB would know it was sold as a bare lower.
dcmdon
NES Member
Thats what I was thinking. I don't know if the state gets the 4473s. But the 4473 would clearly indicate it was a receiver rather than a functional firearm. Section B would be marked "other" and section D would be written "receiver".
In that case barrel length would be "n/a"
Lower receivers originally sold as receivers (as opposed to those taken from guns) are usually also marked "multi" rather than with a specific caliber.
If it was a functional gun, you would enter the actual caliber on the 4473 even if the lower was marked "multi".
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No the state doesn't get 4473s and in fact I've been told by dealers that ONLY the Feds can demand access to them.
slugworth
NES Member
How do you check what's registered to you??
You fill out a form, get it Notarized, pay $20 and wait a number of weeks for them to send you a list. What use said list is is highly questionable and why I would never waste my money on it.
I just picked mine up a couple of weeks ago (won at BBQ, thanks Ntomsw). The answer is NO, he only did the NICS/4473 as required. He knows that FA-10s are NOT required or wanted by FRB.
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What would you fill I on an FA-10 that is for a gun going out of state??
Buyer : XYZ Gun Shop, Anytown, Free America
Must be done on paper FA-10 as MIRCS won't let you do it.
If buyer is John Smith, FFL, forget the FA-10 and just get a receipt showing that he's an FFL. If business name, fine to do the paper FA-10.
[Yes, I know they are hard to find.]
Must be done on paper FA-10 as MIRCS won't let you do it.
If buyer is John Smith, FFL, forget the FA-10 and just get a receipt showing that he's an FFL. If business name, fine to do the paper FA-10.
[Yes, I know they are hard to find.]
dcmdon
NES Member
As I'm sure you know Len, if it goes out of state, it must go to a FFL. So a receipt is probably more than satisfactory.
The other thing that is not a bad thing to have is a copy of the payment sent to you for said gun. typical payment for interstate sales is a USPS money order. It never hurts to have the buyer write the firearm and sn on the MO.
The other thing that is not a bad thing to have is a copy of the payment sent to you for said gun. typical payment for interstate sales is a USPS money order. It never hurts to have the buyer write the firearm and sn on the MO.
