FA10 questions... again.

[JackOfAllTrades]

Ok, here we go again... FA10 questions... The more I read, the more confused/infuriated I get.

Let's say that I were doing development of my own receiver that happens to be parts compatible with a popular .22LR gun.

Let's say that I built a receiver that should work but I haven't assembled anything yet.

At this stage, I don't need to file an FA10, right? Or does having all the parts needed to make it a functional gun move me right to the need to file territory?

Now let's say that I assemble it into a functional gun and test it.

Now I have to file an FA10, right?

Now, I revise my plans and make a new receiver.

Since I am too cheap to buy all the other parts again, I disassemble the first gun.

When I assemble the revised receiver into a functional gun, I have to file a new FA10 for that receiver, right?

There is nothing to do to "unregister" or declare a previously registered gun (receiver) destroyed, is there?

Since I am making these things for my own edification, I am not limited to four per year, am I? Or is each registration considered a transfer and counted against my four per year?

I am planning on marking any receiver I make in accordance with the NFA requirements, even though as an individual I am not required to do so. Having a serial number and maker should make filling out various forms easier.

I keep having visions of trying to explain to someone that the box with 75 receivers really are the "arsenal" that the FA10 records imply I have. Worse, that some were destroyed in the development process and no longer exist.

Comments? Am i on the right track?

 

[Derek68]

What if you were to serialize the revised receiver with the same number and destroy the old one ? It would take the previous receivers registration.

 

[dgrafton]

Personally, I would not serialize them and put only what is required on the fa10.

Others will chime in.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Once it is capable of firing a shot, you need to file an FA-10 within 7 days.

No way to "unregister" since it is not items, but "transfers" that are recorded. No need since you are making for yourself and not for sale.

 

[dcmdon]

You are way way way overthinking this.

Who cares?? Nobody would know or care if you didn't put it on a public forum on the Internet.

When the receiver is capable of firing a shot, FA10 it.

Don't serialize it.
Don't put a serial number on the FA10. To do otherwise would be a lie, which would be perjury.

If you use the eFA10 system, it may require a SN. I dont' know if it does.

If it does, use a paper form and put "none"

If you can't get a form, submit the a PDF form. The FRB will kick it back to you with a blank 3 part form.

Don

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

You are way way way overthinking this.

Who cares?? Nobody would know or care if you didn't put it on a public forum on the Internet.

When the receiver is capable of firing a shot, FA10 it.

Don't serialize it.
Don't put a serial number on the FA10. To do otherwise would be a lie, which would be perjury.

If you use the eFA10 system, it may require a SN. I dont' know if it does.

If it does, use a paper form and put "none"

If you can't get a form, submit the a PDF form. The FRB will kick it back to you with a blank 3 part form.

Don

As for the "who cares" question (which I assume is about filing the FA10), on some level I don't, as the utility of this whole system is highly questionable... but, it is the law, and I should do my best to follow it.

The idea of serializing it is two fold. First, so that it could be transfered later and second, to minimize the potential problem of "no serial == illegal" by some clueless bystander.

I don't understand why putting the serial number I provided as the maker of the firearm on the FA10 be perjury?

Are paper FA10 forms still accepted at all? I thought from some other threads that they had stopped accepting them at all.

All in all, good comments in here.

Still no idea if "registrations" count as one of my four "transfers" per year. I don't think they do, but I am not sure.

 

[Len-2A Training]

As for the "who cares" question (which I assume is about filing the FA10), on some level I don't, as the utility of this whole system is highly questionable... but, it is the law, and I should do my best to follow it.

The idea of serializing it is two fold. First, so that it could be transfered later and second, to minimize the potential problem of "no serial == illegal" by some clueless bystander.

I don't understand why putting the serial number I provided as the maker of the firearm on the FA10 be perjury?

Are paper FA10 forms still accepted at all? I thought from some other threads that they had stopped accepting them at all.

All in all, good comments in here.

Still no idea if "registrations" count as one of my four "transfers" per year. I don't think they do, but I am not sure.

Do as you like but IIRC (and I'm not expert on building guns) BATFE does not require a S/N until/unless the builder disposes of the gun.

Don't know where you shoot but no place that I've ever been do lookie-loos check my guns for S/Ns! If someone starts poking around my guns, they will firmly be told to buzz off and mind their own business.

FA-10s do not mandate S/Ns, no gun (at least rifles/shotguns, unsure about handguns) was required to have a S/N until 1968, so there are millions of guns out there with no S/N yet made by large mfrs.

Paper forms are still accepted as long as they are the official 1-part or older 3-part forms. Once they build their portal, you will be required by law to do all transfers (and registrations) online only. There is no limit to how many guns you can register, ONLY to how many you can dispose of directly per year (4).

 

[MikeInMA]

The idea of serializing it is two fold. First, so that it could be transfered later and second, to minimize the potential problem of "no serial == illegal" by some clueless bystander.

Serialization would not matter as you are not a licensed manufacturer and home built cannot be sold/transferred like a normal gun or receiver as such things are supposed to be for personal use. Having a serial # may confuse someone less clueless into thinking you are trying to pass off a homemade hobby gun for something it isn't leading to a potential problem. IANAL

Add: You may want to look into discussions or site FAQs related to 80% lowers as I think the same general principles apply.

 

[drgrant]

You are way way way overthinking this.

Who cares?? Nobody would know or care if you didn't put it on a public forum on the Internet.

When the receiver is capable of firing a shot, FA10 it.

Don't serialize it.
Don't put a serial number on the FA10. To do otherwise would be a lie, which would be perjury.

If you use the eFA10 system, it may require a SN. I dont' know if it does.

If it does, use a paper form and put "none"

If you can't get a form, submit the a PDF form. The FRB will kick it back to you with a blank 3 part form.

Don

This. Jesus christ.

Although, CJIS doesn't send out free FA-10s anymore. They just send the "**** You" letter and thats it.

-Mike

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Do as you like but IIRC (and I'm not expert on building guns) BATFE does not require a S/N until/unless the builder disposes of the gun.

Don't know where you shoot but no place that I've ever been do lookie-loos check my guns for S/Ns! If someone starts poking around my guns, they will firmly be told to buzz off and mind their own business.

FA-10s do not mandate S/Ns, no gun (at least rifles/shotguns, unsure about handguns) was required to have a S/N until 1968, so there are millions of guns out there with no S/N yet made by large mfrs.

Paper forms are still accepted as long as they are the official 1-part or older 3-part forms. Once they build their portal, you will be required by law to do all transfers (and registrations) online only. There is no limit to how many guns you can register, ONLY to how many you can dispose of directly per year (4).

I am aware that the BATFE doesn't require a serial number on a home made firearm, but if you ever want to transfer it (sell it, gift it, or pass it to an heir) it needs to have a serial number put there by the original maker. The recommended markings were a unique to the maker serial number, the maker's name, and the location it was made.

There is no requirement as to when or if it is marked, but why not do it right from the start. That way if something unfortunate happens, I can pass my work to my relatives rather than have all of it destroyed as non-transferable.

I was less concerned with the range lookie-loos and more concerned with some unforseen interaction with officer unfriendly... then again, I suppose it probably doesn't matter at that point.

I am glad to see that "registrations" are not "transfers". That answers my last question.

Thanks!

 

[dcmdon]

This. Jesus christ.

Although, CJIS doesn't send out free FA-10s anymore. They just send the "**** You" letter and thats it.

-Mike

Well if they won't send out a FA10, then how are you supposed to register an unserialized gun.

I realize that they want you to use the Eform.
I also realize that by requiring the SN on the eform, in 99.9% they are preventing an error.

But the requirement for a serial number means that there is no way to register an unserialized firearm.

Which leads me to sending in a printed PDF form with an explanation that the gun is unserialized. That should get you a paper FA-10

Jack - I'm sorry if I sounded snippy. Its just frustrating to me when people appear to be afraid to exercise their right within the law because they "don't want trouble".

With that in mind, DON'T serialize the gun unless you actually want to. It is perfectly legal for a non-licensee to make an unserialized gun for your own use. You can't sell the gun anyway, so a SN serves no purpose other than to give the government an easier means to track it.

My advice to you is do what you need to be legal. Always be legal. But do no more than is required.

On the topic of ethics, do what meets your own sense of ethics, even if it exceeds the law. I'd never store a gun out in the open with a trigger lock on it. Trigger locks are for college students. All my stuff is in heavy, TL rated safes. Because I feel that I have an ethical responsibility to society to make sure that my firearms don't end up in anyone else's hands.
Before I had kids and when I lived primarily in CT, that included hiding the guns very well. But hiding is unacceptable with children in the house. In a house with children, all guns should either be on you or locked up. But thats just me.

Don

 

[Len-2A Training]

I am aware that the BATFE doesn't require a serial number on a home made firearm, but if you ever want to transfer it (sell it, gift it, or pass it to an heir) it needs to have a serial number put there by the original maker. The recommended markings were a unique to the maker serial number, the maker's name, and the location it was made.

There is no requirement as to when or if it is marked, but why not do it right from the start. That way if something unfortunate happens, I can pass my work to my relatives rather than have all of it destroyed as non-transferable.

I was less concerned with the range lookie-loos and more concerned with some unforseen interaction with officer unfriendly... then again, I suppose it probably doesn't matter at that point.

I am glad to see that "registrations" are not "transfers". That answers my last question.

Thanks!

I see your point wrt S/N, so just do it . . . I'd tend to agree with you on that from that perspective.

Many officers don't even realize that the unwashed masses can even own an AR15, forget about pre/post-ban issues. I wouldn't lose sleep over what random officer thinks about a gun w/o a S/N, made by owner. In almost 40 years of gun ownership, the only LEOs who have ever looked at any of my guns were shooting beside me at the time!! I've even "clanked" guns while being fingerprinted (FL license) at the PD and it wasn't even mentioned. Too many here over-think this stuff and worry too much.

Well if they won't send out a FA10, then how are you supposed to register an unserialized gun.

I realize that they want you to use the Eform.
I also realize that by requiring the SN on the eform, in 99.9% they are preventing an error.

But the requirement for a serial number means that there is no way to register an unserialized firearm.

Which leads me to sending in a printed PDF form with an explanation that the gun is unserialized. That should get you a paper FA-10

. . .

On the topic of ethics, do what meets your own sense of ethics, even if it exceeds the law. I'd never store a gun out in the open with a trigger lock on it. Trigger locks are for college students. All my stuff is in heavy, TL rated safes. Because I feel that I have an ethical responsibility to society to make sure that my firearms don't end up in anyone else's hands.
Before I had kids and when I lived primarily in CT, that included hiding the guns very well. But hiding is unacceptable with children in the house. In a house with children, all guns should either be on you or locked up. But thats just me.

Don

No, they won't send a paper form, they stopped doing that a few years ago.

Just because the eFA-10 ASKS for a S/N does NOT mean it prevents you from registering an unserialized firearm. On "registration" it seems to "demand" the info on the prior owner too, but when I didn't fill any of that screen out and hit "next" it let me proceed. Worst case he puts "NONE" in the S/N space if it won't let him proceed. That will work.

I agree with you that locking guns up to prevent disaster (kid getting it) or theft is a wise idea regardless of law.

 

[REDSFIREARMS]

Receivers itself if you desire to Register it you will use 000000, it will tell Mircs that you planning to build up something, Once you complete the full stock you must register it with the proper s/n etc etc.

Reds


"Exclusivity is for everyone. Try us! You'll find us refreshing."

 

[dcmdon]

But you don't ever need to serialize a home made firearm. That was kindof the point of this whole discussion. And 000000 is still a number. Its technically perjury. I like "none" better.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Receivers itself if you desire to Register it you will use 000000, it will tell Mircs that you planning to build up something, Once you complete the full stock you must register it with the proper s/n etc etc.

Reds

The current and former FRB Directors both went out of their way to TRY to educate MA Dealers that MGL does not require NOR does FRB want to see FA-10s for frames/receivers, period, end, all stop!!

I know that some anal MA Dealers insist on doing this, any my only recommendation is to stop doing business with those ignorant dealers and find someone with a clue. Please don't advise people to do this, it does not comply with MGL, is not desired or warranted under any circumstance.

 

[REDSFIREARMS]

It's is optional to mark it all zeros. That came right from Mircs.
The Must is once is completed.

Reds


"Exclusivity is for everyone. Try us! You'll find us refreshing."

 

[REDSFIREARMS]

But you don't ever need to serialize a home made firearm. That was kindof the point of this whole discussion. And 000000 is still a number. Its technically perjury. I like "none" better.

It's not a must to register the receiver alone it self.
Some people if they wish to do so its allowed to use six zeros, but it's not required. Again it's allowed and stated by Mircs and they know of it.


"Exclusivity is for everyone. Try us! You'll find us refreshing."

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

Jack - I'm sorry if I sounded snippy. Its just frustrating to me when people appear to be afraid to exercise their right within the law because they "don't want trouble".

With that in mind, DON'T serialize the gun unless you actually want to. It is perfectly legal for a non-licensee to make an unserialized gun for your own use. You can't sell the gun anyway, so a SN serves no purpose other than to give the government an easier means to track it.

My advice to you is do what you need to be legal. Always be legal. But do no more than is required.

On the topic of ethics, do what meets your own sense of ethics, even if it exceeds the law. I'd never store a gun out in the open with a trigger lock on it. Trigger locks are for college students. All my stuff is in heavy, TL rated safes. Because I feel that I have an ethical responsibility to society to make sure that my firearms don't end up in anyone else's hands.
Before I had kids and when I lived primarily in CT, that included hiding the guns very well. But hiding is unacceptable with children in the house. In a house with children, all guns should either be on you or locked up. But thats just me.

Don

Don't worry about sounding snippy. I have been around enough to know that sometimes things come off differently than intended... especially when all you have is some text.

Don't worry about me being afraid to exercise my rights. The hoops the state wants me to jump through aren't going to stop me from doing what I want to do, I just want to know how they want me to jump through them.

I now know that as soon as it is capable of firing a shot, I have to fill out the FA-10 within seven days.
Serial numbers are optional.
There is no need or way to tell the state a gun no longer exists.
Registrations don't count against the four personal transfers per year the state allows me.

So long as I fill out my FA-10 forms I will be fine. Anything else I do (serialize, other documentation, etc) is just stuff I want to do regardless of my reasoning.