Eyewitnesses allegedly say man w/gun arrested unlawfully in JP on 10/4

cams

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Is this incident a legal LTC holder who was arrested by the Boston PD for the simple act of carrying? Or is this just another criminal act conducted by the po-pos?
It must be, there’s no way some shitbird gangbanger would be carrying a gun in Boston so I’d def blame the cops right away.
 

KVX

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I'm guessing the crux of the issue is that "looks like he was carrying" ought not be reasonable suspicion to stop and search someone in a state where concealed carry is legal. The fact that the man may very well have been engaged in a crime is immaterial, because the police had no reason to know that and the stop was improper.
One potential caveat to that is if the police knew the man and knew he was a prohibited felon.
Was he "open carrying", or had an arrest warrant out for him ?
 

PappyM3

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Was he "open carrying", or had an arrest warrant out for him ?
Your questions don't pertain to the quotes you selected. Matt-CZ gave the caveat of "... in a state where concealed carry is legal." My caveat removes the legality of concealed carry for an individual. And I brought up that caveat because officers are often well aware of known gang members in their patrol area.

Now, is your contention that suspicion of carrying, regardless of legality of carrying, is not a reasonable cause for a stop and search?
 
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The whole place is being overrun by yuppie liberals with their little muffin shops and rainbow flags. Southie, Dot, JP, The Hills, Centre St, it’s everywhere now.
+1. . . . yup . . . hives all over the city including City Hall . . . has been this way for 20 years , or more.
 

Roadglide

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Wouldn't that be Neponset Circle? St Brendan's parish? Although I guess Ashmont is further south.
Not sure geographically. From a technical standpoint I know lower mills, Cedar Grove, Ashmont, Fields Corner, Savin Hill, Codman Square, Uphams Corner, Franklin Field, Bowdoin Neponset, and Harbor Point. Never in my life heard any self respecting hardcore residents say they are from South Dorchester.
 

Matt-CZ

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God, sometimes I really hate twitter, and this is one of those times. A bunch of screencapped article snips with no link, references and replies to tweets that are deleted or private, endless flaming back and forth with no real information, and just general confusion on what the hell is even happening.

Here's the BPD release about the arrest, it's short: Suspect in Custody After BPD Officers Recover Loaded Firearm During Violent Struggle in Jamaica Plain — bpdnews.com No mention of the BPD recognizing this person as a known PP, so any argument there is just speculation on facts not in evidence. If the BPD had such slam dunk reasoning for conducting the stop, they would almost certainly say so and not rely on "he looked sketchy".

I am extremely dubious of this "clear indications he was carrying a firearm" without any very specific details. Unless those indications were obvious printing or having a "nip slip" that exposes the gun to plain view, this smacks of BS. This is "furtive movements" or "Marijuana smell" level of extremely subjective probable cause that is 100% unverifiable after the fact. There is no way for the public, or more importantly, a court, to know if this is BS later, which is why cops love it so much. Just like their drug dogs that are wrong more than half the time, the point isn't to be accurate, it's to bypass the requirements for conducting a search.

I can see why GOAL is reticent to get involved yet, as the incident is fresh and the details are hazy. Better yet to just keep tabs on this and step in later if appropriate.
 
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PappyM3

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...No mention of the BPD recognizing this person as a known PP, so any argument there is just speculation on facts not in evidence. If the BPD had such slam dunk reasoning for conducting the stop, they would almost certainly say so and not rely on "he looked sketchy".

Welcome to speculation station ;). We’re pretty much all speculating at this point. And I’m not saying the cops did recognize the guy as a PP. Rather, it’s a possibility.
 

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I am extremely dubious of this "clear indications he was carrying a firearm" without any very specific details.
Of course, there is that one inconvenient fact against your argument — the perp actually was a criminal and was illegally carrying a firearm.

I’m guessing that in this case the cops actually did recognize that he was carrying a gun,
 

Matt-CZ

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Of course, there is that one inconvenient fact against your argument — the perp actually was a criminal and was illegally carrying a firearm.

I’m guessing that in this case the cops actually did recognize that he was carrying a gun,
He could 100% be a criminal engaged in criminal activity and the stop could have been unlawful and a violation of his civil rights, the very same civil rights all us non-criminals also enjoy.

I'm curious, if it were you, or any other legally licensed LTC person walking down the street carrying a gun, you wouldn't find it at all objectionable that a cop detain you, pat you down, and not release you until they verified that you were legally carrying a gun?
 
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M1911

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You are conflating two separate issues. Your first objection is that you doubt that they could accurately tell that the suspect was carrying a gun. I think you are wrong. I think they are probably pretty darn good at telling whether someone is carrying a gun. I also suspect that they were not watching the suspect at random. I suspect that the suspect is one of a relatively small number of gang members and the cops recognized him.

Your second objection is whether that suspicion was a legal justification for the stop.

I’m not arguing issue two. I’m arguing issue one. I’m not arguing whether this stop was legal or morally right. I’m disagreeing with you about issue one: I think that these cops knew what they were doing and recognized, by the suspects behavior, that he was carrying a gun.
 

Matt-CZ

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You are conflating two separate issues. Your first objection is that you doubt that they could accurately tell that the suspect was carrying a gun. I think you are wrong. I think they are probably pretty darn good at telling whether someone is carrying a gun. I also suspect that they were not watching the suspect at random. I suspect that the suspect is one of a relatively small number of gang members and the cops recognized him.

Your second objection is whether that suspicion was a legal justification for the stop.

I’m not arguing issue two. I’m arguing issue one. I’m not arguing whether this stop was legal or morally right. I’m disagreeing with you about issue one: I think that these cops knew what they were doing and recognized, by the suspects behavior, that he was carrying a gun.
To address issue one, we have no idea how good the cops are at such things. False positives (pat down leading to no gun and no arrest) don't get recorded in any meaningful way. There have been credible reports in the past of the BPD engaging in NYPD style "stop and frisk" type tactics that have very low success rates compared to the number of citizens who are searched. So maybe they recognized this guy as some known gang member. Or maybe the cops in Dorchester make a habit of hassling people that fit the profile of "thug", and who cares if most the pat downs come up empty.
 
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Dennis in MA

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If he was licensed he probably also wouldn’t have been on the ground fighting them
Ah yes. The old "if you aren't guilty. . . . " prosecution.

I'm guessing the crux of the issue is that "looks like he was carrying" ought not be reasonable suspicion to stop and search someone in a state where concealed carry is legal. The fact that the man may very well have been engaged in a crime is immaterial, because the police had no reason to know that and the stop was improper.
Exactly. It's a BS stop. He might have a colostomy bag he's adjusting. Or a present for his girlfriend. Adjusting your pants - especially in today's "almost falling off of you" fashion is something EVERYONE does. (well, everyone in that circle.)

Wouldn't that be Neponset Circle? St Brendan's parish? Although I guess Ashmont is further south.
Aye. The Eire Pub and all dat! My grandmum lived on Burgoyne St for many'a'years. Spent many Saturday afternoon at St. Brendan's and then Dairy Queen after, m'lad. Walked to the Dunkin at Neponset Cir. with my brother on Sat AM's. I can still taste the chocolate frosted donuts. Sat at the counter, we did.

You are conflating two separate issues. Your first objection is that you doubt that they could accurately tell that the suspect was carrying a gun. I think you are wrong. I think they are probably pretty darn good at telling whether someone is carrying a gun. I also suspect that they were not watching the suspect at random. I suspect that the suspect is one of a relatively small number of gang members and the cops recognized him.

Your second objection is whether that suspicion was a legal justification for the stop.

I’m not arguing issue two. I’m arguing issue one. I’m not arguing whether this stop was legal or morally right. I’m disagreeing with you about issue one: I think that these cops knew what they were doing and recognized, by the suspects behavior, that he was carrying a gun.
I'm not that confident in their abilities. Adjusting your pants? Nah, brah. GRABBING at your pants like you were holding a gun if it were outside your shirt - I get that. I don't know. I hate felons felloning, but I dislike overbearing government just as much, if not more. Tough call.
 
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I would be willing to bet the Cops were part of the BPD gang unit and recognized the perp. I doubt they are randomly picking young black men to stop and frisk after Black Lies Matter.
 
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The whole place is being overrun by yuppie liberals with their little muffin shops and rainbow flags. Southie, Dot, JP, The Hills, Centre St, it’s everywhere now.
+1. . . . yup . . . hives all over the city including City Hall . . . has been this way for 20 years , or more.
Wouldn't that be Neponset Circle? St Brendan's parish? Although I guess Ashmont is further south.
St. Gregory's ? Lower Mills ?
 

Dennis in MA

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My mom grew up near the "Hello Grandfather" section of Boston. Known locally as Hi-Pah! LOL
 
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My Mother grew up on American Legion Highway in Roslindale. My first Army Reserve Armory was right near her old house and was named after a local kid killed at Anzio.
 

Dennis in MA

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Ha! My grandmother (dad's mom) lived up the hill from Rozzi Square - Prospect St??? back in the 60's-80's. Just looked on Googz - Corner of Prospect and Sherwood. Looks in better shape than she left it. Them damned privet hedges are still there but cut WAAAY back.
 

drgrant

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To address issue one, we have no idea how good the cops are at such things. False positives (pat down leading to no gun and no arrest) don't get recorded in any meaningful way. There have been credible reports in the past of the BPD engaging in NYPD style "stop and frisk" type tactics that have very low success rates compared to the number of citizens who are searched. So maybe they recognized this guy as some known gang member. Or maybe the cops in Dorchester make a habit of hassling people that fit the profile of "thug", and who cares if most the pat downs come up empty.
The thing is the media/reporting and even BPDs tweet on this are all sketchy at best. A lot of times they leave shit off the table till someone gets prosecuted and you can actually see the documentation. For all we know this guy could have been on probation and subject to having his life f***ed up at random odd intervals. The backstory on this is limited to nonexistent. For all we know someone could have ratted on this guy and they started surveillance on him.... of course that doesn't justify an illegal stop, if
that's what actually happened. Too many variables.

-Mike
 
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