Extreme Close Range Gunfighting-Gabe Suarez

[Big Daddy 45acp]

That's right, GUNFIGHTING!

I just spent 2 days training with Gabe Suarez. Let me tell you, all I can say is WOW! The techniques I learned caused me to throw most of my Military and MCJTC training out the window!

Due to range constraints, Gabe had to alter his methods. Instead of "sandwiching" the Force-on-Force segment between 2 live fire segments, we had to spend 1 day doing live fire (400-450 rounds) and the next day reinforcing our newly learned skills with FOF training.

Day one was spent "deconstructing" our square range techniques. Gabe's method had us cutting our time from holster to shots on target drastically.
We then spent time shooting on the move, from a concealed draw. By the end of the day, everyone of us were getting hits on target, on the move and sights were optional. There we very few targets that had misses.

Day two was spent putting our newly learned skills to use. Utilizing Airsoft pistols, we were confronted with various adversaries at ranges from 7 yards to what Gabe calls "bad breath distance".

Gabe showed us how to beat the knife from the standard 7 yards, then 5 yards and even closer. We then repeated this with bad guys with guns. By the end of the day, I was able to beat a BG with a drawn firearm and finger on the trigger. At 4 yards. From concealment. No B.S., there were witnesses.

Gabe Suarez thinks outside of the box, and encourages his students to do this as well. He does not teach like any other instructor that I know. He teaches you how to survive, plain and simple. His whole attitude is "better judged by twelve, than carried by six". He takes this to the extreme and tries to instill it his students. He is not a dogmatic trainer and is very personable. The Q&A sessions during breaks and lunch were just as informative as the actual training.

Personally, the whole "front sight, press" is out the window for me! When it comes to a real life encounter, by the time you align the sights, you should already have several hits on target.

Mess up the draw at these ranges, and you are in trouble. I found 2 types of holsters that do not cut it for me. Large hands and funky configurations don't mix well. They are now listed in the Classifieds.

The airsoft training drove things home. I think this is a safe way to train realistically. It is cheaper and easier to use than Simunitions or other marking units. And those "bee stings" I saw in the mirror are a reminder that Gabe's techniques work and I would be a dead BG had the ammo been real.

I know several folks on this forum have trained with Gabe in the past, and I hope this post does him justice. I could keep going on, but if inquiring minds want to know more, I suggest you take one of Gabe's class.

 

[Len-2A Training]

So I have to ask . . .

What goes wrong with the Serpas wrt what you learned in this class?

 

[M1911]

Dunno what he doesn't like about the Serpas.

One of the criticisms I've read of the Serpas is that the release is performed by pressing in with the trigger finger. The problem is that under stress, the inward pressure can result in pressure against the trigger as you draw the gun. There have been NDs by experienced people using Serpas.

 

[Adam_MA]

Dunno what he doesn't like about the Serpas.

How bout this?

http://totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?p=18445#post18445

Over the last year, I have developed some serious concerns with the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster design. Various persons have brought these concerns to the attention of Blackhawk on several occasions and Blackhawk has chosen to ignore these very real issues.

The ‘Serpa Active Retention’ design consists of a plastic L-shaped component which functions as the release button [from the outside of the holster] and as the lock [which engages inside the trigger guard]. The short leg of the L-shaped lever pivots inward [toward the pistol], while the locking tab pivots outward to release the pistol from the holster.

According to the Blackhawk website, ”The release is made using your normal drawing motion, with the trigger finger beside the holster body. … As your trigger finger naturally comes to rest on the SERPA lock’s release mechanism, simply push the mechanism as you draw the weapon and it releases the gun for a smooth, fast draw.”

While Blackhawk may intend for the end-user to apply inboard pressure with the flat of the index finger, under stress, shooters tend to push the button with the tip of their index finger. After all, this is the manner in which most people have the most repetitions pushing buttons such as keys on a keypad or phone or ringing doorbells. When the finger pushes in on the release button and the user initiates the upward motion of the drawstroke, the finger tends to stay in motion and as the trigger guard clears the holster, the finger enters the trigger guard and contacts the trigger, with possibly tragic results.


I am aware of two instances where trained personnel have shot themselves using this holster in conjunction with Glock pistols. In August of 2004, a situation occurred with a live weapon that resulted in the shooter losing a 10cm piece of her femur. The other occurred with nonlethal training ammunitions in a force-on-force event in April of 2005. The impact of the NLTA was in the same area as the actual gunshot wound previously mentioned.

Following each of these events, Blackhawk was contacted and advised of the problems observed and concerns raised. In the first instance, they claimed that they were unaware of any previous issues with the design and insisted that the design had been ‘thoroughly tested by law enforcement and military personnel’.

After the second event, they were contacted by at least two people. Again, they stated that they were unaware of any concerns and had heard nothing similar from any sources.

If this were not disturbing enough, in October 2005, while assisting with a class in Casa Grande, AZ, additional concerns surfaced. During a force-on-force evolution, when a student attempted to draw an NLTA-modified Glock 17 from his Blackhawk Serpa holster, he was unable to free the gun from the holster.

In fact, the gun was so tightly held in the holster that, with one person applying both hands to the release button and another person applying two hands to the pistol, the gun could not be freed. Upon inspection, a small piece of gravel, approximately the size of the head of a pin, had managed to work itself into the Serpa release button and wedge the lock in place.

While trying to effect a release of the pistol from the holster, the entire holster popped off of the belt. The three screws that attach the holster body to the belt plate simply slipped through the tracks in the belt plate without apparent damage. Of what use is a retention holster that does not keep the gun on the belt?

In my opinion, the Blackhawk Serpa Active Retention holster is a severely flawed design. It offers the theoretical advantage of security while, in reality, offering none. It does not hold up to the rigors of realistic training. It accentuates the possibility of an unintentional discharge. It is unsafe.

 

[M1911]

Yup, that's exactly what I was trying to describe.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Yes, I'm aware of the accusations. There are others who also say that if you perform "proper trigger finger discipline" (finger straight alongside slide) that this is a non-issue.

I bought a Glock Serpa holster and have tried it with an unloaded gun. Never had finger go for trigger. Of course, under stress I'm not as sure, thus my question to BD.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

I had problems with both the Serpas and the Biachi Carry-lok. I attribute this to my extremely large hands. My finger can actually reach beyond the button, to the point where my fingertip is beyond the button and the crease of the first knuckle is on the fence surrounding the release. This results in me not being able to push the button with the pad of my fingertip. As a result, I ended up trying to draw before activating the release. This equaled a fumbled draw. I had this problem with both a Sig 220 and a Glock 21.

To compensate, I had to crook my finger to hit the release. At least once, during a draw from the seated position, my finger slid into the trigger guard. This problem has been reported elsewhere. Fortunately, This was with my Sig, and I avoided perforating myself.

I am not condemning the holster, it just does not work for me.

I had similar problems with the carry-lok. My finger just would not index properly on the release. In the heat of the day (I sweat like a prostitute in church), my finger not indexing and with sweaty hands, my finger would slip off the release. It is too bad, as I like the way Bianchi carries the gun. Real close and tight to the body.

Conversley, a standard leather pancake worked fine during the Force-on-Force component. I guess 15 years of using "police-type" holsters with a thumb break is why.

 

[M1911]

Have you tried the Safariland retention holster with the hood retention system?

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

No, I never tried the Safariland. The Bianchi pancakes have always worked good for me. There are a couple other Kydex holsters I will being testing out. The Uncle Mike's and others commonly available just don't cut it.

Then again, who doesn't have a box of holsters laying around that worked great at first?

 

[M1911]

Then again, who doesn't have a box of holsters laying around that worked great at first?

I've got a box of holsters that never worked great, let alone "at first"

 

[Adam_MA]

I guess I was a lucky one. I only have a couple of holsters that I don't like/use anymore. I was able to find one right away that fits perfect, and works to hold the gun secure, close to my body, and undetected under light clothing!

 

[Neptune Cat]

I guess I was a lucky one. I only have a couple of holsters that I don't like/use anymore. I was able to find one right away that fits perfect, and works to hold the gun secure, close to my body, and undetected under light clothing!

Will you share the make and model of said holster. I'm always looking for new ideas.

 

[Adam_MA]

Will you share the make and model of said holster. I'm always looking for new ideas.

Comp-Tac C-TAC.

If you have any more questions, please PM me, so we can keep this on topic.

 

[AndyL]

Safariland hooded holster (6280/6004)

ALL,

Someone mentioned this line of holster, I use them ALL the time, love them, they work, NO issues to speak of, I have had them COVERED with ice/water in the snow/slush/snush and have had them work (same with sandy nasty gunk, mud too). I am sold on them.

Andy

PS Conway, Nastek and Doug have seen me in action with them, I am not hampered at presentation time at all with this rig.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I can attest that not much hampers Andy!

Seriously, I can attest that you want Andy on your side when it hits the fan. You do NOT want to be opposing him!

Andy were you using this holster last year in the classes?

 

[matt]

I use the Bianchi Carry Lok, but I use my ring finger to depress the release and leave the trigger finger indexed along the slide during the draw. After some practice I don't really think about the motion. I've never missed the lever. Also the trigger remains covered until fairly far into the draw when the finger is nearly fully extended (at least for my hands).

Also, good review! Thanks.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The importance of FoF Training

Gabe Suarez, crossposted from another list I get . . .

"We recently returned from several force on force training courses. What follows will eventually be written up in an article of sorts, but the points are quite important and so I thought sharing the raw data with you would be beneficial.

1). All fights involve one party taking the initiative and the other party responding. There are no mutually agreed upon fights. You either start the ambush, react to it, or avoid the danger area altogether. Most so-called
modern training makes the assumption that, due to a developed mind-set, that the operator will never be surprised and thus allway have the initiative. Wishful thinking IMHO.

2). If you have good information and can trust what you see, you can take the initiative on the adversary. This may mean preemptive drawing and shooting, as well as preemptively leaving before the fight begins. Distance
benefits those who wish to be preemptive which is why the insistance of certain trainers in always maintaining distance, and always being alert. If you can guarantee always being alert, 24/7/365, and will never be
surprised...and can guarantee it 100%, then just work on your marksmanship and don't worry about anything else. The rest of us will look at other solutions.

3). If the adversary also has the initiative the result will either be a suicide drill where each man kills the other, or a stand-off where nothing happens until on decides to either act or leave. We see the suicide drill a lot when training first time FOF students from certain gun disciplines. They rely on a fast draw without thinking that the other man may also have a fast draw, or even get to start the fight.

4). Even in cases of unequal speed, but equal initiative, when men rely only on draw speed, unless one screws up the draw, the drill ends up with both men shot. The hits may be separated by 1/4 or 1/2 second, but excluding a head shot, I do not believe a pistol shot will be likely to stop the other man from pressing a trigger.

5). All gunfights are 50% shooting and 50% not being shot. I think most sane men would agree that the "not getting shot" is more important that the shooting part. Moving sharply off the line of attack drastically decreases the odds of receiving a hit from the adversary. Staying put in a Weaver or Isoceles, increases the odds of taking a hit unless you have total surprise or are behind cover (again preemptive).

6). Some directions of movement tend to increase the angle away from the gun man's muzzle. This means it takes more time for him to get his muzzle back on you. It also means it gives you more time on the trigger. With sufficient hits, he may not ever be able to catch you. I say "may" because there are no guarantees in a fight.

7). In a reactive event (which most non-cop fights will tend to be) it is imperative to move off the "X" to avoid being hit. As well, drawing and getting your own shots moving toward him is highly important. If either one is delayed you increase the chances of getting shot.

8). Most guys get shot when they stop. They initiate movement and avoid the first few shots, but then stop to take a precise shot. At that point they get hit. Keep moving until he's down, you have escaped, or you are
behind cover. Movement is life, stationary shooting in the open is death.

9). The most important step once the game opens is to step off the X. Make that dynamic!

10). As hard for some people as it is to hear this, in a reactive gunfight, your physical conditioning is a factor in your survivability. Agility is an issue. If you lack agility, you'd best be hard on the alertness phase so you do not have to be reactive. The problem is that it is hard to guarantee such things. Historically there is a belief that the gun trumps everything, and that there is no need to do anything else. The first force on force evolution changes that. Instead of trying to shave a tenth of a second off your draw, or shooting a tight group, get to the gym and lose weight!

11). Centerline Draws - Appendix Draw, or Cross Draw are markedly faster than strong side hip or behind the back. The lines and amount of motion required to get the gun on target are dramatically less. Why these two modes of carry have been ignored by many is primarily due to artificial restrictions at competitions and competition-based shooting schools..

12). No one has seen a traditional sight picture for the first three shots in our Reactive Drills since I began teaching this material. Each FOF student must understand less than optimum methods of aligning the pistol. Point Shooting, Meat-N-Metal and other methods have value and their place in the fighting progression.

13). An understanding of the ranges of combat and what is applicable at each diatnce interval is important. When people are pressed, they change the interval by either running away, or closing the gap. The idea that you will always be able to keep your distance no matter what is ridiculous. Learn how to fight up close when the time arrives. Your ability to understand this and exploit it will make you a better fighter.

14). Concessions of accuracy and movement. When moving do not concede your movement to gain an edge in accuracy. Rather than modifying your movement to accomodate range-based shooting, modify your range-based shooting to accomodate your movement.

OK. That is it for now. I know the gun-nazis and gun school mafia will no doubt burn me in effigy (they could never do it in person)."