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Enlightening day at the range

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jbos6

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I spent a couple of hours at MRA today with my buddy, shooting his G23's and S&W PC1911. As usual, I'm all over the map with the Glock. No clue why, but I don't shoot that pistol well naturally ... it takes a lot of concentration for some reason. The 1911, however, is a different story. I'm in the 9 or 10 ring nearly every time at 10 yards. Fine, it's a Performance Center, but I can't get CLOSE to that accuracy with the Glock. Another gentleman at the range happened to have a Sig P239 (in .40), and I shot that nearly as well as I did the 1911. Good news is I don't*totally* suck at

In a couple of months, I'm going to be getting my license and, subsequently, my first handgun. Clearly, the Glock is not for me. I got to wondering if the grip angle of the 1911 was just more natural to me ... anyone know if the Sig's grip angle is similar to the 1911?

Any recommendations for a pistol that's good for concealed carry, has a grip similar to a 1911 and is under about $800? I'm a big guy, but I don't think I could pull off concealing a full-size 1911. I know S&W has a sub compact 1911, but that's out of my price range.

Love these forums, thanks in advance for your input!
 
A Commander or Officer size 1911 have shorter barrel, and would be better for concealed carry.
 
Seems your problem might be your trigger control, not the grips. The 1911 and P239 are single action guns (at least after the first shot), with very short and light trigger pulls. The Glock however is double action only, much harder to shoot accurately without more practice, just like a revolver. The fact that the grip angle of the Glock is different may move your groups, but the group size is not affected by the grip angle.
 
jbos6 said:
I spent a couple of hours at MRA today with my buddy, shooting his G23's and S&W PC1911. As usual, I'm all over the map with the Glock. No clue why, but I don't shoot that pistol well naturally ... it takes a lot of concentration for some reason. The 1911, however, is a different story. I'm in the 9 or 10 ring nearly every time at 10 yards. Fine, it's a Performance Center, but I can't get CLOSE to that accuracy with the Glock. Another gentleman at the range happened to have a Sig P239 (in .40), and I shot that nearly as well as I did the 1911. Good news is I don't*totally* suck at

In a couple of months, I'm going to be getting my license and, subsequently, my first handgun. Clearly, the Glock is not for me. I got to wondering if the grip angle of the 1911 was just more natural to me ... anyone know if the Sig's grip angle is similar to the 1911?

Any recommendations for a pistol that's good for concealed carry, has a grip similar to a 1911 and is under about $800? I'm a big guy, but I don't think I could pull off concealing a full-size 1911. I know S&W has a sub compact 1911, but that's out of my price range.

Love these forums, thanks in advance for your input!
Click to expand...

I'm with you on the Glock thing. It just doesn't sit in my hand well. No matter what I do...if I just pick it up and start shooting...I'm ALWAYS high and to the left. Most of the other things that I shoot will pretty much have a natural point of aim for me. I don't know what it is with the Glock, but I don't shoot it well either. I think that since I've lost 70 pounds, I shoot it a little better...so I know it's the grip and how it sits in my hand.

As for what to get...the only thing that I can say is to try as many things as you can. Because if it's a carry gun...it should be pretty much point, and the sights should line up pretty well.

But, someone that spends more time in IDPA or such might have better advice. But, the ones I carry, when I do...if I close my eyes, pick it up and point it without looking...when I open my eyes, the sights are pretty much lined up.
 
Gotta try a few before you buy...
PM me when the next time you go to MRA and I'll see if I can get up there so you can try an M&P9 with Apex trigger.
 
I'm certainly not as well informed as to the fundamentals of pistol shooting as other here, but it seems some pistols are just not for some people. I love my 92F, G27, and M&P .45 duty and routinely shoot tight groups with them all, but I can't hit a broad side of a barn with a Sig.

I'm sure others will have better suggestions, but a compact M&P may be an option, especially since if feel/grip is the issue, the M&P comes with interchangable grips in different sizes.
 
97serpent said:
A Commander or Officer size 1911 have shorter barrel, and would be better for concealed carry.
Click to expand...

I really love the style of the 1911's, though I'm wary of going with a .45 for my first gun as I'll probably be shooting it a *lot* and .45's not cheap! Short of tracking down a Springfield EMP in MA (anyone? anyone? Bueller??), not sure about finding a real 1911 in 9 or 40. Also not sure how best to track down a Commander or Officer size 1911 (my apologies if that's a dumb question, but I'm still new at this!)
 
glock triggers i dont like...i also shoot sigs and the 1911 much better than any glock, and i've shot many flavors of glock. trigger just doesn't work for me.
 
Smith and Wesson 1911ES is the gun you are looking for. Buy a .22lr conversion kit for range plinking and you are good to go!

Have a crossbreed for mine. Carries and shoots like a dream.
 
jbos6 said:
I really love the style of the 1911's, though I'm wary of going with a .45 for my first gun as I'll probably be shooting it a *lot* and .45's not cheap! Short of tracking down a Springfield EMP in MA (anyone? anyone? Bueller??), not sure about finding a real 1911 in 9 or 40. Also not sure how best to track down a Commander or Officer size 1911 (my apologies if that's a dumb question, but I'm still new at this!)
Click to expand...

It's definitely expensive. I have a full size S&W 1911, and I only shoot it once in a while. It is by far the most accurate gun I have. I have a G17 with a 3.5lb connector, and it is more accurate than the stock 5lb connector. Its all about trigger control, like others have said in the thread. Once you get something you are comfortable with, get some snap caps and practice practice practice. This should translate to more accurate shooting at the range. I like to mix snap caps in with the live ammo when I go to the range, and you can see exactly what you are doing wrong (pushing, pulling, etc).
 
97serpent said:
It's definitely expensive. I have a full size S&W 1911, and I only shoot it once in a while. It is by far the most accurate gun I have. I have a G17 with a 3.5lb connector, and it is more accurate than the stock 5lb connector. Its all about trigger control, like others have said in the thread. Once you get something you are comfortable with, get some snap caps and practice practice practice. This should translate to more accurate shooting at the range. I like to mix snap caps in with the live ammo when I go to the range, and you can see exactly what you are doing wrong (pushing, pulling, etc).
Click to expand...

.45 ACP ammo isn't that much more expensive when compared to 9mm or .40 S&W. Probably about 10%-15% more.
 
jbos6 said:
I spent a couple of hours at MRA today with my buddy, shooting his G23's and S&W PC1911. As usual, I'm all over the map with the Glock. No clue why, but I don't shoot that pistol well naturally ... it takes a lot of concentration for some reason. The 1911, however, is a different story. I'm in the 9 or 10 ring nearly every time at 10 yards. Fine, it's a Performance Center, but I can't get CLOSE to that accuracy with the Glock. Another gentleman at the range happened to have a Sig P239 (in .40), and I shot that nearly as well as I did the 1911. Good news is I don't*totally* suck at

In a couple of months, I'm going to be getting my license and, subsequently, my first handgun. Clearly, the Glock is not for me. I got to wondering if the grip angle of the 1911 was just more natural to me ... anyone know if the Sig's grip angle is similar to the 1911?

Any recommendations for a pistol that's good for concealed carry, has a grip similar to a 1911 and is under about $800? I'm a big guy, but I don't think I could pull off concealing a full-size 1911. I know S&W has a sub compact 1911, but that's out of my price range.

Love these forums, thanks in advance for your input!
Click to expand...

Get some more experience first before you write them off. Newer shooters are often more comfortable in incorrect positions and people who tell them that comfort is the priority may be misleading them.

Ever see someone drive a car with one foot on the gas and the opposite foot on the brake? It's because someone told them it was ok/didn't correct them and they continued to practice that way.

A lot of people complain about the Glock trigger but personally I think the M&P (even in a free state) is much worse.
Regardless of that it shouldn't mean you miss the the 9 and 10 ring at 10 yards. That should be pretty easy with any gun you are remotely comfortable with.

Sig's grip angle. I don't worry about the angle so much as the thickness of the gun. Holding a Sig is like wielding a walrus penis. My fingers can't reach the controls well, I can barely reach the trigger in double action.

Recommendations for concealed carry?
There are tons of threads on this and the advice always varies wildly.

I went from Glock 30 to a 1911 to a Glock 36, to a Glock 26 and a Glock 19.
Personally I would never carry a single action only gun for many reasons I won't get into here.

For me, my 1911's are my cool guns, not my carry guns.
 
jbos6 said:
I spent a couple of hours at MRA today with my buddy, shooting his G23's and S&W PC1911. As usual, I'm all over the map with the Glock. No clue why, but I don't shoot that pistol well naturally ... it takes a lot of concentration for some reason. The 1911, however, is a different story. I'm in the 9 or 10 ring nearly every time at 10 yards. Fine, it's a Performance Center, but I can't get CLOSE to that accuracy with the Glock. Another gentleman at the range happened to have a Sig P239 (in .40), and I shot that nearly as well as I did the 1911. Good news is I don't*totally* suck at

In a couple of months, I'm going to be getting my license and, subsequently, my first handgun. Clearly, the Glock is not for me. I got to wondering if the grip angle of the 1911 was just more natural to me ... anyone know if the Sig's grip angle is similar to the 1911?

Any recommendations for a pistol that's good for concealed carry, has a grip similar to a 1911 and is under about $800? I'm a big guy, but I don't think I could pull off concealing a full-size 1911. I know S&W has a sub compact 1911, but that's out of my price range.

Love these forums, thanks in advance for your input!
Click to expand...

For me, ergonomics (grip angle, grip thickness, grip shape) and trigger design (Single, Double/Single, Double Only, Striker Fired) are the two major elements in determining if a hand gun "is just more natural" for someone.

A gun with better ergonomics will require a shooter to spend less effort to achieve the same end result. And this is something that is more obvious when one is shooting under pressure and/or when speed is a factor (when shooting in competition, etc).

HOWEVER... if you take speed and pressure OUT of the equation... and if the shooter applies the correct fundamental skills every time a shot is taken... ergonomics should no longer play a part. The shooter should be able to hit the target consistently, point of impact is point of aim, every time, regardless of what brand of gun is used.

If one takes their time... say, shoots one round every 10 seconds... and they're still "all over the place" with the Glock... then it's user error... and not the ergonomics. There is something that they are not doing correctly.

Additionally, for a beginner shooter (who's maybe had very little coaching or training)... Something that Wheelgun mentioned (the difference between the triggers of a 1911, Sig, and Glock) could definitely be a factor. They are all different, and all require different degrees of "manipulations" to achieve the same result. Treating them all the same (not knowing any better) could be why one is "all over the place" with one gun, but not with another. And just to be clear... The fundamentals of trigger control (slow press straight back to the rear while keeping the sights on target) remain the same across the different guns... but each gun requires you to do slightly different things BEFORE getting to that point.
 
Last edited:
Hanwei said:
HOWEVER... if you take speed and pressure OUT of the equation... and if the shooter applies the correct fundamental skills every time a shot is taken... ergonomics should no longer play a part. The shooter should be able to hit the target consistently, point of impact is point of aim, every time, regardless of what brand of gun is used.

Additionally, for a beginner shooter (who's maybe had very little coaching or training)... Something that Wheelgun mentioned (the difference between the triggers of a 1911, Sig, and Glock) could definitely be a factor. They are all different, and all require different degrees of "manipulations" to achieve the same result. Treating them all the same (not knowing any better) could be why one is "all over the place" with one gun, but not with another. And just to be clear... The fundamentals of trigger control (slow press straight back to the rear while keeping the sights on target) remain the same across the different guns... but each gun requires you to do slightly different things BEFORE getting to that point.
Click to expand...

I agree with Hanwei, and before spending a lot of money on a firearm, get some quality instruction and training. You may find that you have multiple areas for improvement that will effect your selection. Take a look at the "training" area of this forum and you will find many referrals.
 
I hate to add to this Glock vs other fuel, but this is the same experience my gf and I had when we rented a Glock in 9 MM to try it out. We were al over the place and it wasn't pretty.

The same day we rented a Beretta 92FS, a Sig, a Springfield XD and a few other 9 MMs and didn't have the same problem.

We were shooting slowly and carefully trying to understand how each pistol felt.

We now own Springfield XDm's, a couple of 1911s and some others. But the Glocks just didn't fit our hand or we didn't warm up to them. I'm not sure if it's the grip angle, or just all the ergonomics of the Glock compbined with both of our hands (a woman and a man) coming together. Obvously many others can shoot very well with a Glock.

The best thing is to rent a few and see what works well for you. Also get some instruction.
 
jbos6 said:
I really love the style of the 1911's, though I'm wary of going with a .45 for my first gun as I'll probably be shooting it a *lot* and .45's not cheap! Short of tracking down a Springfield EMP in MA (anyone? anyone? Bueller??), not sure about finding a real 1911 in 9 or 40. Also not sure how best to track down a Commander or Officer size 1911 (my apologies if that's a dumb question, but I'm still new at this!)
Click to expand...

Check the classifieds on this forum - all kinds of guns show up there. Just be ready for the MA surcharge for things like Colts (they command a premium because they're harder to find in MA - supply and demand). And good luck on the Springfield EMP - I'd love one, myself.

Underwhere said:
Holding a Sig is like wielding a walrus penis.
Click to expand...

I am truly worried about how you know this...
 
Since it is still available in Ma. as far as I know you might want to check out a Walther P99 in its different variations. It has an interchangeable backstrap which helps in fitting it to your hand. Also as others have suggested the S&W pistols which some also have interchangeable backstraps.
 
SheepDog_B said:
45's are definitely more expensive.
Click to expand...

It depends on what you get. If you go to a gun shop and buy factory ammo you're going to pay a fair amount more (up to double the price of 9mm). But you'll save a LOT if you by reloads or if you reload your own. It just cost me right around $360 to get everything I needed to start reloading AND get enough components to load 1000 rounds of .45 ACP. That means my 1st 1,000 rounds are costing me $0.35 cents a round ($18 per 50). My next 1,000 rounds will cost me $130 because I can reuse the brass and I don't need to buy anymore equipment. That equals out to $0.13 a round ($6.50 per 50 rounds) which is VERY affordable to shoot. Winchester WB 9mm luger runs around $12 per 50 rounds at Walmart.
 
Timber said:
check this out. changes the angle of the grip, and prevents "glock hand" for guys with meaty paws that mash down on their pistols.

http://www.gripforceproducts.com/

i'll get one out and review it soon, but it was recommended to me by one of the hardest pistol shooters i've ever had the pleasure of training with.
Click to expand...

I am looking forward to your review but I may not wait. For 27 bucks it seems cheap enough to try out. I have "meaty paws" and usually end up bleeding from the slide riding across the webbing of my hand. If I change my grip to avoid it shooting my G19 gets worse especially when I try to shoot faster. Buying and competing with an M&P solved my problems but I do like my 19.
 
I don't believe that my technique (though surely imperfect) is any different between the three pistols yesterday (P239, 1911, G23), so I do agree with those that think it's either the grip angle or the trigger. The travel of the trigger on the P239 when it's in DA is *big* compared to the G23 and would take some getting used to, but I LOVED the 239 in SA!! I've considered the P99 (I've had it in Airsoft for a *long* time and like how it fits my hand), but I've never actually gotten the chance to fire it.

The gentleman at MRA who so kindly let me fire his P239 mentioned swapping barrels between .40 and .357Sig in the 239. Does anyone know if you can swap between .40 and 9mm in the 239? (I have not yet gotten the chance to crawl through the forums to see if this has already been answered.) As I plan to put a LOT of rounds through this as my first gun, the ability to shoot a lot of the cheaper 9mm on the range but carry .40 in the same platform would be *awesome*.
 
I held a 4th Gen Glock 17 over the weekend. Didn't shoot it, though. The 4th gen grip is a big improvement IMO. I've always found the Glock 17 (and my Glock 34) to have a grip circumference that is just a bit too big for my medium sized hands. The 4th gen with the medium backstrap fixed that.

The Glock trigger is still an issue, which contributes to many new Glock shooters shooting low and left.
 

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