Does carry in a bag/back pack holster fit in "under direct control"

[andy t]

Greetings,

I am thinking about carrying (under LTC A) my pistol in a briefcase or a specifically designed gun pouch such as the Wilderness SafePacker.
Would that fit in the requirement for the gun being "under direct control" when walking about?
When I come into the office and set the back on the floor next to my chair, is the "under direct control" also applies?
And lastly, while driving, if I kept the bag on the front passenger seat - would that be allowed?

Thanks,

Andrew.

 

[Dirtypacman]

Great question... I am not sure myself but would love to know.

 

[KMaurer]

I suspect that the answer would be yes for all the cases you mention, assuming that when you set the pack down next to your desk you don't later go to the restroom, your boss's office or some meeting while leaving it there. I'm sure that if I'm wrong here, our resident curmudgeon will jump in to say that I'm a damn fool for venturing my opinion, and that you're an idiot for not having found the right answer yourself. Otherwise I wouldn't expect any response from that quarter.

Ken

 

[Twigg]

This could be entertaining...

 

[SiameseRat]

My questions would be, how comfortable are you that somebody will not either accidentally pick up or steal your briefcase if you are not physically holding it?
If somebody else gains control of your briefcase you could be in a world of trouble.

Also, if you are walking somewhere and the situation arises that you need your firearm, how quickly will you be able to access a gun in a briefcase?

 

[FPrice]

I vote for Ken's answer.

ALL OF IT!!!

 

[FPrice]

The MGL for "Storage" states:

For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user. (emphasis mine)

However I have not seen any definition of "control" in the MGLs I have looked through.

The test(s) I use for "control" or "direct control" are:

Can you see the firearm or the container it is stored in?

Can you get to it quickly or without any difficulty?

Can you keep any "unauthorized user" from getting control of your firearm?

If you can answer "Yes." to all of these questions then you can make a good case that it is under your control. Just remember, in this case, distance is not your friend.

I hope this helps.

 

[rscalzo]

I've seen way too many reports of stolen briefcases in my town to be comfortable with leaving my handgun in a briefcase/backpack. There is no way that you will be carrying that everywhere you go for eight hours.

The based on the fact that it might be forgotten or stolen, I wouldn't want to store a firearm in that manner. Now as for the legalities, that is another matter entirely.

 

[Chris]

The real question is what happens if you run to the can, a meeting, or Joe across the floor needs you to come look at XYZ.

 

[FPrice]

The real question is what happens if you run to the can, a meeting, or Joe across the floor needs you to come look at XYZ.

"Hey Joe! Wait till I strap my heat on."

 

[jhrosier]

I would quess that if the gun was to be stolen, you would have a hard time proving that it was under your direct control.
The best possible outcome would probably be revocation of your LTC for "suitability" reasons.
I've tried the gun in a dayplanner a couple of times but spent so much time worrying/thinking about it that I've decided it's not the way to go.
My solution was to buy a much smaller gun that can be easily concealed on my person.

 

[Cross-X]

I have a special name for people in Massachusetts who choose to carry their guns in backpacks, purses and dayplanners. I call them clients!

Darius Arbabi

 

[FPrice]

I have a special name for people in Massachusetts who choose to carry their guns in backpacks, purses and dayplanners. I call them clients!

Darius Arbabi

I would not have for a lawyer an attorney who would have me as a client.

 

[andy t]

Darius,

I am curious about the issues you allude to that may arise. Could elaborate more about off person carry and MA law?

Thanks,

Andrew.

 

[Cross-X]

When one decides to carry a gun off-body, a number of issues arise, many of which otherwise responsible gun owners may not even think to consider.

Day planners, backpacks and purses can be accidentally left behind. If the someone else discovers that there is a gun in the gear, it can be very bad for the gun's owner, resulting in criminal charges, loss of LTC, and, if it comes to the employer's attention, possible loss of a job.

I am aware of several instances where this has occurred, including guns left in bathroom stalls, guns stored in purses left behind in a grocery shopping cart, and a gun that slipped out of concealment purses only to be found the following morning in the high school parking lot where the PTA meeting had been held.

When we carry a firearm, we do so as protection against a deadly attack, agreed? If your gun isn't in a holster on your body, your draw time will suffer, and if you are digging in a purse, dayplanner or briefcase, your unusual movements may give away your intentions, with devastating results. Your gun is only yours so long as you can keep it, and it will do you no good at all if the bad guy gets it away from you.

I find that some folks who opt for off-body carry end up also being afraid of carrying their semi-auto with a round in the chamber, ready to fire. Instead, they believe that the safe thing to do is carry with a full mag, but empty chamber, trusting that they will be able to work the slide and chamber a round at the instant they realize they are facing a deadly force attack.

Too many things can go wrong in this scenario. One could fail to fully rack the slide, nervously ride the slide forward, jamming the gun, or, even forget to rack the slide at all, dropping the hammer on an empty chamber. If the gun has a safety, the gun owner could accidentally flick it on. It may take way too long to figure out what the problem is, and solve it in time.

Another problem is what I call "preparing to prepare syndrome". If your gun is holstered on your body, if you get into a encounter that might lead to deadly force, you have very little to do in order to be ready. With training, you should be able to draw and fire within 1.5 seconds.

If your gun is not in a holster on your body, you'll need to prepare to prepare, removing it from wherever you have it concealed before the action begins in ernest. One client, who has given me permission to discuss what he did, was travelling down I-93 north of Boston. He was carrying his Glock 19 in his soft-sided briefcase. He had nothing in the chamber, and the gun was loose in the briefcase. No holster. He got into a road rage situation with a tractor trailer driver. He feared the trucker was going to force him off the road, get out of his truck and beat him to death.

My client did what many improperly trained people end up doing: as he was driving down the highway, he drew his gun before he actually needed it. He told me he didn't point it at the trucker, he just took it out of the briefcase and put it on the seat beside himself so he'd have it at hand if and when he needed it. Unfortunately, the trucker was able to see what he did. Guess who was the first one to call the police? That's right, the trucker.

A few minutes later, my client was pulled over by the Mass. State Police. The troopers took him out of his car at gunpoint, seized his gun, and charged him with Assault With a Dangerous Weapon.

Looking back on it, if he'd had his gun in a holster on his body, there would have been no need to have been seen drawing a gun. Instead, he got himself into an embarrassing brush with the law. After many court dates, I was able to get his case dismissed after a short period of probation, and payment of court costs. He lost his MA non-resident LTC, and the MSP confiscated his Glock 19 until I could make arrangements to pick it up and store it for him until I could get it to him where he lives out of state.



At the risk of drawing what some may call an unjustified conclusion, I believe that most people who opt for off-body carry would be well-served if they increased their level of firearms training, gained more confidence in their firearms skills, and learned the wisdom of on-body, carry in a well-fitting, quality holster affixed to a quality gunbelt. Carrying on one's body is safer, less-risky, and enables the gun owner to have his gun in hand when he really needs it.

 

[lightbulb1976]

I know old post. But I am interested in the Safepacker but not sure if it is legal to use in Mass. Its a holster so shouldn't it be hidden from view?

 

[Cross-X]

I know old post. But I am interested in the Safepacker but not sure if it is legal to use in Mass. Its a holster so shouldn't it be hidden from view?

You raise an interesting point. Still, I think one's use of a Safepacker would be acceptable in Massachusetts.

 

[Mikey]

I am glad this thread came up b/c just last night I discovered the Maxpedition Versipack, and was thinking it would be ideal for hiking and camping, but now I am not sure. I still think it is a pretty cool product and still might get it but…..

Cross-X, I assume you would have the same feelings towards off-body carry even in the wilderness? Although I think that this product is not really off-body, maybe you would just call it a big holster.


http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=31

 

[benster]

I am glad this thread came up b/c just last night I discovered the Maxpedition Versipack, and was thinking it would be ideal for hiking and camping, but now I am not sure. I still think it is a pretty cool product and still might get it but…..

Cross-X, I assume you would have the same feelings towards off-body carry even in the wilderness? Although I think that this product is not really off-body, maybe you would just call it a big holster.


http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=31

This is a great product. I use it in the woods but would never in the city. It all depends on your environment. In the woods I would say you have a better idea of whats around you and identifiying potential "threats" in your proximity. In the city, there are people everywhere so I prefer pocket carry for easier access and it's less conspicuous (for me at least). Also, remember the versipack is still a "bag" that you may accidentally leave behind and access is not as quick as "on body".

 

[Mikey]

Ya I am talking strickly wilderness use, all other times it is always on-body.

But thanks I am glad to hear it is a good product.

 

[FeeBear]

I have a special name for people in Massachusetts who choose to carry their guns in backpacks, purses and dayplanners. I call them clients!

Darius Arbabi

I don't care who you are, now that is funny

 

[Cross-X]

Cross-X, I assume you would have the same feelings towards off-body carry even in the wilderness? Although I think that this product is not really off-body, maybe you would just call it a big holster.


http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=4&idproduct=31

The Maxpedition unit looks interesting, but it might not be so comfortable if you were also carrying a conventional backpack.

My main issue with off-body carry in a pocket or pouch on the backpack on your back is that if you need it, it will be likely be difficult to get to and slow to draw and deploy, especially when you consider that the inevitable adrenaline dump may render you clumsy and inept at simple physical tasks.

Even in the woods, lethal trouble could surprise you, whether the predator has two legs or four.

If I felt the need to carry a gun for protection in the woods, I'd much prefer to have it in a strong-side waist-level holster, whether it was in an IWB or OWB rig. Caliber choice is something wise men could bicker about for a month of Sundays.

 

[lightbulb1976]

Not sure if I am going to get it for CCW around town. Maybe it would be alright for the woods, biking, and in the car but not everyday carry. Right now I don't CCW, because I am not sure about the usefulness of carrying in this state. Too many gray areas in the laws.

 

[Mikey]

Not sure if I am going to get it for CCW around town. Maybe it would be alright for the woods, biking, and in the car but not everyday carry. Right now I don't CCW, because I am not sure about the usefulness of carrying in this state. Too many gray areas in the laws.

I would say only use it in the woods, when in public places you want complete concealability (I don’t think that is a word… ). That thing would seem to be legal but not very discreet which most people I think anyways would agree is paramount.

 

[TomH]

Thats a VERY large holster
but hey you can fit your ipod in it too!

 

[drgrant]

Not sure if I am going to get it for CCW around town. Maybe it would be alright for the woods, biking, and in the car but not everyday carry. Right now I don't CCW, because I am not sure about the usefulness of carrying in this state. Too many gray areas in the laws.

If you think MA has "too many gray areas" apparently you haven't visited some of
the "new CCW" states that sometimes have even more convoluted restrictions
than MA does. (such as legally binding private property signage, and complicated
prohibitions against carrying in establishments that serve/sell
alcohol... MA has none of that. ) Once you study the laws here a bit you
discover that there are very few places where one cannot legally carry a gun.
(Mind you, I'm not suggesting the laws here are "good" by any stretch of
the imagination.... but I feel a reality check of sorts is in order. )

-Mike

 

[lightbulb1976]

f you think MA has "too many gray areas" apparently you haven't visited some of
the "new CCW" states that sometimes have even more convoluted restrictions
than MA does. (such as legally binding private property signage, and complicated
prohibitions against carrying in establishments that serve/sell
alcohol... MA has none of that. ) Once you study the laws here a bit you
discover that there are very few places where one cannot legally carry a gun.
(Mind you, I'm not suggesting the laws here are "good" by any stretch of
the imagination.... but I feel a reality check of sorts is in order. )

Getting a bit off topic but as I know their is not right to self defense in this state. Meaning if one uses deadly force to protect oneself or family, the shooter committed a crime that is punishable to the fullest extent of the law. The shooter will have to prove themselves in court that they acted in the right way in the situation.

 

[vaccaroja]

on the subject matter

while still on the subject matter. I ride my bike a lot and when I do so I carry sometimes depending on where i go. I carry inline near my back. Would there be any problem if my shirt flew up and drivers behind me could see the but of the weapon?

 

[Cross-X]

Getting a bit off topic but as I know their is not right to self defense in this state. Meaning if one uses deadly force to protect oneself or family, the shooter committed a crime that is punishable to the fullest extent of the law. The shooter will have to prove themselves in court that they acted in the right way in the situation.

You are not correct. Not even close.

For an introduction to the law of self-defense in Massachusetts, I'd recommend you take a class I teach with Jon Green at the GOAL Foundation called The Art of Concealed Carry.

You are a GOAL member, right? If not, call the GOAL office at 508 393-5333 and join the rest of us who are, and have been for many years. During that call, you could also sign up for our next available Art class.

Darius Arbabi

 

[matt]

while still on the subject matter. I ride my bike a lot and when I do so I carry sometimes depending on where i go. I carry inline near my back. Would there be any problem if my shirt flew up and drivers behind me could see the but of the weapon?

I suspect the answer is "yes". There was a thread about this very thing a long time ago... a search might find it if you are lucky. It was over a year ago I think.