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Does a commercial office building that has a school as a tenant, along with business tenants, count as a school as contemplated by MGL 269 § 10 (j)?
- Thread starter Freddy B
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If it is an elementary, secondary, or college, it is a school and forbidden zone. It doesn't matter if it is a private or public school.
EMTDAD
NES Member
I think he means does the school being on property constitute the entire property as forbidden?
Sorta like if Sears in the mall closed and only the Sears became a school, is the entire mall off limits?
Are preschools exempt or not specifically included?
Freddy B
NES Member
Just to be clear, I didn't mean to distinguish between public and private schools. This is a commercial office building that has a school, along with several business tenants, in an office park filled with other buildings, all of which have strictly office tenants.
Gidge
NES Member
As regards to a private school, if the person running it (headmaster, dean, principal) is okay with it is allowable to carry on the premises, correct ?
Public schools I understand, but if the school is not taking money from Uncle Sam, they can allow whatever they want (e.g. Wyoming Catholic College allows students to carry).
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Retired-LEO
NES Member
Yes with their permission "in writing"; it would be allowed.
It must be there person at the absolute highest level authority (such as the headmaster or superintendent)
who issues the written authorization.
A mixed use building COULD be up to interpretation by any LEO responding to a complaint.
My IANAL take on it would be that the area used by the school is off-limits, the rest of the building is not. But an enterprising DA/LEO might disagree and let the court fight it out.
A good example is . . . many years ago my Wife worked at 10 Brookline Pl., Brookline. One floor was a college. She worked for BWH on another floor.
My IANAL take on it would be that the area used by the school is off-limits, the rest of the building is not. But an enterprising DA/LEO might disagree and let the court fight it out.
A good example is . . . many years ago my Wife worked at 10 Brookline Pl., Brookline. One floor was a college. She worked for BWH on another floor.
MGL does NOT include pre-schools, etc. (unless run in a building that is part of an elementary/secondary school).
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What kind of school is it? Is it a primary education institution(K1-12, college,etc)? I would assume that "School of Dance", "School of Motorcycle Maintenance" or even "Russian Math School"(I saw this one on Route 1!) are not covered by the law. I don't know. I'm asking.
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My understand is that John Silber wrote himself an authorization letter when he was president of BU.
Common sense would indicate that the school is a tenant, and that areas under its control are a school. Same for a post office in a building. A post office in a shopping mall does not make the entire mall a post office. But the law does not often rely on common sense.
Where it gets tricky, and to my knowledge untested, is if the building has a "for tenant tenant's customer use only" parking lot, with no dedicated area for each tenant. An argument can be made since the school customers can park anywhere in the lot, license to do so being granted by their relationship with the school, the entire lot constitutes a school for the purposed of 269-10(j). Yes, it would be a reach - but to the best of my knowledge here is no definitive ruling.
It's conceptually similar to the case (sorry, I don't remember where) in which an employer fired someone for having a gun in their car because they parked in a common lot that was not under the employer's exclusive control but available to employees and patrons of many business in a multi-tenant complex.
There are lots of interesting edge cases - for example, an apartment building owned by the school but not used for student housing. Is that part of the school or an investment owned by the school not part of the school? And if it's not used a a dorm rented through the student housing office, does a student renting a unit on the open market turn it into part of the school?
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greencobra
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i never gave this much thought until now...i have been in a gun shop here in massachusetts that had a school in the same building. before, this meant nothing to me, never gave it a second thought. now i'm thinking jeezus....
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Careful if the pre-school has a certified kindergarten (Len, can you fill us in on this one?)
If it was Fred's place on the Cape, it wasn't an elementary school and thus not a prohibited place.
No, elementary school only. An ambitious DA could try to stretch it, but the common definition of "elementary school" starts with "1st grade".
Chevy 2 65
NES Member
No Sir. Crazy that we need to worry about all that.
alan226
NES Member
Interesting. There is a satellite campus of Peabody MA High School in the Northshore mall in Peabody.
Peabody Learning Academy<br />North Shore Mall Peabody, MA
peabody learning academy
www.peabodylearningacademy.com
MisterHappy
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I think that there's a satellite Police Station there, too....Interesting. There is a satellite campus of Peabody MA High School in the Northshore mall in Peabody.
Peabody Learning Academy<br />North Shore Mall Peabody, MA
peabody learning academywww.peabodylearningacademy.com
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
I'm sure there's no connection.
What about school of gun handling?
If I call my range that, it it excluded to carry there?
Mesatchornug
NES Member
safe.
Buck F
NES Member
I have asked this in the past and never really been comfortable with the answer. How about a residential facility (group home) run by a school (private secondary school for our purposes here)? The group home is owned, staffed and run by the school although it is a single family detached dwelling in a suburban neighborhood - the kids go to the main school campus during the day for school and reside in the group home.
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I worked in a place that had this sort of setup, and I also always wondered. I would guess it counts as school grounds as it is part of the contracted schooling for those students. I could be wrong.
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MGL Ch 269 section 10j prohibits CARRY ON ONES PERSON. There is precedent that a qualifier in one section of a law, but not others, is presumed to have meaning.
But good luck convincing the police of this when they make an arrest or determine suitability. And good luck arguing "but...but....it was legal" when the person opposing your LTC revocation state "He had a gun at a SKOOL!! Oh, the children...."
I have read a search warranted granted to look for the gun in a car of someone known to have a valid LTC because the court accepted the police declaration that "possession on school property was illegal" in the application.
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