Doctors and the guns in the house question...

[Len-2A Training]

H-Minus I don’t know you and you may be the nicest guy around, I don’t know that either, but your posts in this thread about asking those types of questions to your patients comes across (to me anyway) as presumptuous and pompous.

If you’re treating any patient over the age of 15 and thinking that they’re such dolts that they don’t know about smoke detectors, seat belts or what have you, and that they need you to educate them of these newest life inventions and/or how they handle or secure their firearms at home for their own kids safety, outside of what’s ailing them at the moment and what they’re paying you for specifically, I’d have to say you’re fooling yourself about your own self worth in regards to your patients. That’s all I got. Take it with a grain of salt because I can be an ass too sometimes.

After reading my town's FB pages for the past year or so, I've discovered that most of the resident adults of my town (almost all with 1 or more college degrees) have no clue who to call when rubbish isn't picked up, problems at the commuter rail station, about contractors working on their street (replacing gas lines), where the police/fire station is located, where town hall is located, etc. ad nauseum!

So yes, sadly we are overrun with "well educated" (book smart), dumber than a bag of rocks (absolutely no street smarts), dolts out there that couldn't figure their way out of their own locked car in the dark.

It's a sad world that we live in.

 

[cams]

^^^ That goes right to the heart of the nanny state though. Let those idiots learn the hard way or fall by the wayside. Once they start falling and scratching their knees (or trying to do a police report at their local RedBox) they’ll either learn to walk and chew gum or just roll over and die. So be it. That’s the way of nature.

I get that some people are just dumb, they’re everywhere, but when this starts becoming a gov sanctioned policy on medical patients even for a simple yearly physical, that’s just collecting information on people entirely irrelevant to the reason they’re there, for which we pay an exorbitant amount of money for a visit, and again, our gov basically telling us all that we’re idiots and can’t survive without them prying into every aspect of our lives. It’s my opinion and may be skewed but it’s still mine while I’m allowed to have one.

 

[Picton]

After reading my town's FB pages for the past year or so, I've discovered that most of the resident adults of my town (almost all with 1 or more college degrees) have no clue who to call when rubbish isn't picked up, problems at the commuter rail station, about contractors working on their street (replacing gas lines), where the police/fire station is located, where town hall is located, etc. ad nauseum!

So yes, sadly we are overrun with "well educated" (book smart), dumber than a bag of rocks (absolutely no street smarts), dolts out there that couldn't figure their way out of their own locked car in the dark.

It's a sad world that we live in.

Yup. I see it every day.

NESers tend to have common sense. We self-select the groups we hang out with, meaning a lot of us choose to associate with people sort of like us. So most posters here probably avoid the world’s dolts.

But they’re out there. In droves.

 

[Dadstoys]

Once it's in any sort of computerized data base , whatever the DR.'s intentions might be are irrelevant .
The government can take that information at will for whatever purpose they want.
Imagine if you had the same arrogant POS for a doctor or doctors that basically kidnapped a 16 year old girl and held her in Boston against her and her family's will.
There was another recently that the family had to pretty much had to pull off a hostage rescue for pretty much the same thing.
No offence to our resident Docs but you know as well as the rest of us that there are some serious God complex guys out there.

 

[CatSnoutSoup]

An excellent answer.

Id probably ask if you wanted to go grab a beer after the appointment.

"Please turn your head and cough. Hey how about getting together for a beer later?"

:emoji_tiger:

 

[BrianWilson]

I wonder what would happen if every male who visited a doctor was questioned about their sexuality, purely on a preventative basis, as AIDS is far, far more prevalent in that subset of the population.

 

[44marty]

I have a small revolver for pocket carry when going to doctors visits

Never been asked the gun questions at any doctors office. Maybe it's the "Pete's Gun Shop" tee shirt ??

 

[308rifleman]

Once it's in any sort of computerized data base , whatever the DR.'s intentions might be are irrelevant .
The government can take that information at will for whatever purpose they want.
Imagine if you had the same arrogant POS for a doctor or doctors that basically kidnapped a 16 year old girl and held her in Boston against her and her family's will.
There was another recently that the family had to pretty much had to pull off a hostage rescue for pretty much the same thing.
No offence to our resident Docs but you know as well as the rest of us that there are some serious God complex guys out there.

There was also the case at the Mayo Clinic where a legal age 18 year old woman had her family help her escape. The staff tried to get full custody of her as a ward with full guardianship. As the nurses tried to grab her, the stepfather intervened. Too bad he didn't whack one of these interlopers with a blackjack!

 

[Boston4567]

Ive explained exactly why I ask questions related to these things in previous posts. So Im not going to rehash them for a third time.

Second I dont record any of these things that are discussed in your health record. They are only asked to prompt discussion and questions that my patients may have of me. I sometimes can answer them I sometimes cant and you are under no obligation to answer anything I ask.

What I do have at my disposal are resources and support systems that many patients who may not be as self reliant as you are in need of. I dont know this until I ask.

Do you know of public programs that would install smoke detectors in your home free of charge if you were a senior on a limited income? Do you think this information will magically fall from the sky?

This isnt an oil change nor is it legal advice and conflating the two is fallacious. Its peoples lives that I do my best to improve every day I go to work.

If you dont like it feel free to go to Canada or the UK for your healthcare or dont go at all it makes no difference to me.

You can choose to answer "tangentially related" health questions or you dont have to. Its not like a provider is going to fire a patient for not wanting to discuss certain topics or report you to some sort of gestapo.

I get what you're saying. But when you say "This isnt an oil change nor is it legal advice and conflating the two is fallacious. Its peoples lives..." what do you mean by that?

Are there boundaries to what your role is compared to a lawyer or a mechanic? Or does the fact that you work in medicine eliminate all boundaries because your job is to take care of people and people are affected by all things? Does the white lab coat render you more immune to the fact that other people are sovereign human beings with a right to self-determination and privacy than a suit and briefcase would?

This is what I mean by a god complex. Your job is to provide a service for a fee. That's it. Same as a lawyer or a mechanic. You are no more valuable nor are your duties less defined or bounded than members of those professions.

People in need of "resources and support systems" should obtain that from family, churches, and charities, in that order. If you sincerely want to delve into peoples' lives to make them better, take a leadership position in one of those institutions in your community. Don't try to use the white lab coat as cover.

 

[H-minus]

H-Minus I don’t know you and you may be the nicest guy around, I don’t know that either, but your posts in this thread about asking those types of questions to your patients comes across (to me anyway) as presumptuous and pompous.

If you’re treating any patient over the age of 15 and thinking that they’re such dolts that they don’t know about smoke detectors, seat belts or what have you, and that they need you to educate them of these newest life inventions and/or how they handle or secure their firearms at home for their own kids safety, outside of what’s ailing them at the moment and what they’re paying you for specifically, I’d have to say you’re fooling yourself about your own self worth in regards to your patients. That’s all I got. Take it with a grain of salt because I can be an ass too sometimes.

You would be amazed to see what I see on a weekly basis. You're right, most of my patients are normal individuals with all their knives in the drawer. Unfortunately, as there is probably everywhere, I have many patients that lack a great deal of common sense or lack resources to live their lives in a manner in which you or I take for granted.

This is particularly true with a lot of seniors, individuals with major mental illnesses, or young, impoverished patients with kids.

Its pretty typical on this forum that we see lots of threads talking about the latest dumbass doing something dumb with a firearm and we all comment "WTF was this person thinking". Now imagine you have 50 people like this that come to you on a regular basis for everything under the sun.

A 20 yo young mom with a toddler at home that hears voices and refuses to take her psyche meds who just hooked up with a guy that got released from a three year vacation to the state prison on assault charges and wants you to refill her oxy prescription because she has "back pain". She tells you this in tears on a busy thursday when you have 15 patients your scheduled to see. If she doesn't get her oxy she wont be able to make it through her shift at the local dunkin donuts. You better believe I'm going to ask her every question imaginable. I don't do this to run and take the info to CPS. I do this to line her up with resources to keep her and her kid safe and healthy to the best of my ability.

Obviously If I'm seeing a 55 yo financial adviser wearing a rolex who comes in for a refill on his gout medications and a quick physical, I'm not going to be asking about smoke detectors, guns, water safety and child proofing cabinets and drawers. I'm going to be focused on family medical history, cardiovascular health and ask about smoking and drinking habits.

Everybody is different and I have to tailor my exams to make the most out of the brief snapshot I get of a persons life in 45 minutes or less.

Unfortunately, I have a lot more patients with lives similar to the former than the latter example. Its not drink water, change your socks and take this 800mg motrin anymore, though many days I wish it was.

 

[cams]

You would be amazed to see what I see on a weekly basis. You're right, most of my patients are normal individuals with all their knives in the drawer. Unfortunately, as there is probably everywhere, I have many patients that lack a great deal of common sense or lack resources to live their lives in a manner in which you or I take for granted.

This is particularly true with a lot of seniors, individuals with major mental illnesses, or young, impoverished patients with kids.

Its pretty typical on this forum that we see lots of threads talking about the latest dumbass doing something dumb with a firearm and we all comment "WTF was this person thinking". Now imagine you have 50 people like this that come to you on a regular basis for everything under the sun.

A 20 yo young mom with a toddler at home that hears voices and refuses to take her psyche meds who just hooked up with a guy that got released from a three year vacation to the state prison on assault charges and wants you to refill her oxy prescription because she has "back pain". She tells you this in tears on a busy thursday when you have 15 patients your scheduled to see. If she doesn't get her oxy she wont be able to make it through her shift at the local dunkin donuts. You better believe I'm going to ask her every question imaginable. I don't do this to run and take the info to CPS. I do this to line her up with resources to keep her and her kid safe and healthy to the best of my ability.

Obviously If I'm seeing a 55 yo financial adviser wearing a rolex who comes in for a refill on his gout medications and a quick physical, I'm not going to be asking about smoke detectors, guns, water safety and child proofing cabinets and drawers. I'm going to be focused on family medical history, cardiovascular health and ask about smoking and drinking habits.

Everybody is different and I have to tailor my exams to make the most out of the brief snapshot I get of a persons life in 45 minutes or less.

Unfortunately, I have a lot more patients with lives similar to the former than the latter example. Its not drink water, change your socks and take this 800mg motrin anymore, though many days I wish it was.

Fair enough. I was replying to what I had read and that’s what I posted on, it does come across to me as .gov sticking their noses into everything now in our everyday lives and that’s concerning.

From what you just posted sounds like you were an army medic, thank you, always loved our medics. Bravest on the field.

 

[Whiskeyjim]

I always wondered if "the questions" would ever come up with my long time doctor, but surprise, I recently found out he just got his LTC.
So, I brought him to the range last week to try out different pistols, turns out he'd never handled firearms at all, so we started slowly from scratch with a 22. We worked up to 9mm and a revolver. Learning to lock open the slide was tough for him though, being both a newbie and a lefty.
Before we left, I had him try a few rounds hitting 50yd steel with the AR.
I'm pretty sure he had fun, he said since I taught him to shoot, he'll have to teach me how to do a rectal exam.

 

[H-minus]

I get what you're saying. But when you say "This isnt an oil change nor is it legal advice and conflating the two is fallacious. Its peoples lives..." what do you mean by that?

Are there boundaries to what your role is compared to a lawyer or a mechanic? Or does the fact that you work in medicine eliminate all boundaries because your job is to take care of people and people are affected by all things? Does the white lab coat render you more immune to the fact that other people are sovereign human beings with a right to self-determination and privacy than a suit and briefcase would?

This is what I mean by a god complex. Your job is to provide a service for a fee. That's it. Same as a lawyer or a mechanic. You are no more valuable nor are your duties less defined or bounded than members of those professions.

People in need of "resources and support systems" should obtain that from family, churches, and charities, in that order. If you sincerely want to delve into peoples' lives to make them better, take a leadership position in one of those institutions in your community. Don't try to use the white lab coat as cover.

See my response to cams above. Maybe this will shed a little light on what Im talking about.

Im a pretty humble dude and with probably the furthest attitude from a "God Complex" that youre talking about. I do know some surgeons though that fit your description to a tee.

If you think by me asking questions to promote prevention and public health is a God complex well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I never stated that my job was any more or less important than a mechanic or lawyer's. You did. What I mean is that it is different. Just like a network engineer's job is different than an air traffick controller's.

If a doctor asking you questions makes you feel self conscious or inferior maybe you should consider talking to a therapist.

Let me know. I can pm you the name of a few decent counselors.

 

[Boston4567]

See my response to cams above. Maybe this will shed a little light on what Im talking about.

Im a pretty humble dude and with probably the furthest attitude from a "God Complex" that youre talking about. I do know some surgeons though that fit your description to a tee.

If you think by me asking questions to promote prevention and public health is a God complex well I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I never stated that my job was any more or less important than a mechanic or lawyer's. You did. What I mean is that it is different. Just like a network engineer's job is different than an air traffick controller's.

If a doctor asking you questions makes you feel self conscious or inferior maybe you should consider talking to a therapist.

Let me know. I can pm you the name of a few decent counselors.

I take your point about DCF baby mommas types, I'm sure that's a miserable thing to deal with and that it's far too big a part of the job these days.

I have no problem with medical professionals providing any kind of resources or help when it's solicited, or for people who are clearly in desperate need and have nowhere else to go, even if what they need help with is not medical in nature.

I have no problem with probing personal questions that are directly relevant to a medical condition (eg, sexual history).

I also have no problem with questions asked as follow ups based on medically relevant risk factors (eg, someone says theyre suicidal and you ask if they have access to guns).

But how about this scenario: A patient will soon be a father/mother. He/she is healthy, intelligent, and upper middle class and is there for a physical. Do you delve into the things you described (guns, child locks, etc) unsolicited? Maybe you don't. Maybe you're not part of the problem. But for too many doctors it's just an item on a checklist they think they're entitled to use on everyone.

The concept of "public health" is an odious one. A doctor's job is to serve an individual patient's medical health, e.g., things related to medicine. "Public health," outside of the narrow field of infectious disease, is a nonsense concept used by leftist doctors to push their nanny state policy preferences.

 

[H-minus]

But how about this scenario: A patient will soon be a father/mother. He/she is healthy, intelligent, and upper middle class and is there for a physical. Do you delve into the things you described (guns, child locks, etc) unsolicited? Maybe you don't. Maybe you're not part of the problem. But for too many doctors it's just an item on a checklist they think they're entitled to use on everyone.

The concept of "public health" is an odious one. A doctor's job is to serve an individual patient's medical health, e.g., things related to medicine. "Public health," outside of the narrow field of infectious disease, is a nonsense concept used by leftist doctors to push their nanny state policy preferences.

Politically, Im pretty uber conservative. I also see your point about the catchall phrase public health being used by those with liberal leanings.

With a soon to be mom or dad like you describe I wouldn't be asking about guns or other related questions at that time because, like I had stated previously, I have very little time to discuss things of concern in order to do my job effectively. I'd save that discussion for later when the kid is reaching toddler age.

I too am a bit paranoid when discussing things with my physician however the gun question is not one of those areas. This is because gun ownership is not a medical diagnosis or ICD code and is not typically recorded in EMRs that I have utilized with a check box or other simple method. Yes you can put it in your free text notes if you were inclined to but that takes time, something that most practitioners have very little of. Even if your doc had the time to write about it in your EMR, if the state wanted this information (if the day comes when they are allowed to violate HIPAA laws) they would have to scan an EMR with a fine toothed comb in order to find it. This also means that it would take extraordinary effort and considerable resources to find gun owners utilizing medical records.

Why go to all this trouble? The ATF already has a much easier way to know who owns what through the NICS system. See National Tracing Center | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Yes they say it is utilized by only weapons recovered by crimes but it would only take a congressional stroke of a pen to morph that into something much more proactive. That is why this whole gun question from ones doctor is a bit overblown in my opinion. They already have the ability to trace a serial number to the end user with all legally purchased firearms.

What I feel is of greater concern is being diagnosed with anxiety, depression, PTSD or a various other behavioral or mental health issues. When or if they decide to use medical information to deny people their rights, individuals with these conditions are going to be the low hanging fruit. As much as I hate to say it, gun owners should think long and hard about going to see their physician about getting a prescription for Xanax or other mild behavioral health concerns unless the need is overwhelming. This is where the issue lies IMHO.

 

[LTCRN]

One of my closest friends used to be an anarcho-capitalist (I think), and as soon as he married a Democrat, he turned hard core democrat. My wife is pregnant, and so is his wife. The other day he tells me that before he lets his son play in my house, he will have to have a talk with me about "the gun". I just replied "well, are your knives, scissors, and household chemicals secure? Id want to know before I let my kid play in your house". Awkward silence ensued. I get it when its actually about security, and not just, cause guns.

Don't forget alcohol, prescription medication, and electrical outlets too!

 

[LTCRN]

So yes, sadly we are overrun with "well educated" (book smart), dumber than a bag of rocks (absolutely no street smarts), dolts out there that couldn't figure their way out of their own locked car in the dark.

Sounds like a typical liberal MA politician and Baker too!

 

[DarkNet]

I would assume that if I asked you how much you drink alcohol, if you take drugs, do you have any guns at home, are you depressed or suicidal, how often do you change the batteries in your smoke detector, do you cheat on your wife, yada yada, you would answer completely and honestly. Because obviously, it would be in my best interest as someone who is hiring you, in the medical field, to help me maintain my health, that I should know anything that might compromise your ability to do your actual job.

 

[once_upon_a_doobie]

"Oooh, Doc, I see you have a new [insert S&W|Beretta|Sig|etc]! Very nice!!" usually how my doctor appointments go.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Being an old fart, I was once asked if I felt safe at home. I said no because my wife is a better shot than I am. End of discussion. Jack.

 

[Dadstoys]

There was also the case at the Mayo Clinic where a legal age 18 year old woman had her family help her escape. The staff tried to get full custody of her as a ward with full guardianship. As the nurses tried to grab her, the stepfather intervened. Too bad he didn't whack one of these interlopers with a blackjack!

Yup that's the second one I was referring to.
Imagine if the same doctor has a hair across his ass about gun ownership.
You might get weekend visits with your kids under supervision once the state takes custody after he/she reports you as a mental defective and unfit parent because you own guns.

 

[AHM]

I told the doctor I didn't want this added to my medical record, and she said it wouldn't be and that it was for her "own personal notes". I don't believe that, but there's not much I can do about that now.

"No problem; but if our house is ever burgled,
I'm telling the detectives that you knew about our guns."

I have wondered if I should/could carry while in a Dr office. If they need me to strip down to my skivvies then where can I put my Glock?

"Prison purse"?

Nah, the exam's not gonna "end" well.

Lol. I carry when I'm at the Doctor's...

BTW, I just realized that Clint Eastwood carries in Condition 2.

If you don't want be honestly blunt and say FO just say "I sold it last week" and move on.

Tragic boating accident.

My patients are more than welcome to tell me to shove it if they want. Lol. ...

If so, Ill be more than happy to refer that patient to a doc that will treat them like a number, spend 2 minutes with them, mis-diagnose them, prescribe the wrong medication, and gladly cash their insurance payments so they can make their tee time. Im just not one of those providers.

You omitted one foible.

A couple months ago, dude was checking if I had lower back pain and he bumped the grip of my G43 lol

But... you appendix carry...

Doc just assumed she was glad to see him.

Well, the New England Journal of Medicine had determined that the number one cause of firearms injuries and deaths are bullets.

I always have my questions written down and I ask them right after the handshake. He can then do what he needs to do. Indiscrimate tapping on the chest, finger up the ass and the nut juggeling.

And that was just for tennis elbow...

 

[308rifleman]

After reading my town's FB pages for the past year or so, I've discovered that most of the resident adults of my town (almost all with 1 or more college degrees) have no clue who to call when rubbish isn't picked up, problems at the commuter rail station, about contractors working on their street (replacing gas lines), where the police/fire station is located, where town hall is located, etc. ad nauseum!

So yes, sadly we are overrun with "well educated" (book smart), dumber than a bag of rocks (absolutely no street smarts), dolts out there that couldn't figure their way out of their own locked car in the dark.

It's a sad world that we live in.

My wife and I told our daughters that firearms are not to be discussed outside of our home. We do not want a repeat of the incident where little Jill told our pediatrician and her nurse practitioner that we own guns.

 

[wahsben]

I'm pretty sure I've posted this before but I'll post it again. If your doctor asks if there are guns in the home hand them this form:

View: https://www.scribd.com/document/235549775/Gun-Doc-Form

Also read the Risk Management Advice to Physicians after the form. Scroll to read the whole thing.

 

[AHM]

If your doctor asks if there are guns in the home hand them this form: ...

 

[fishgutzy]

If I got asked that question and answered honestly, it would be yes there are guns in the house. No they are not locked up. In fact I leave a loaded gun on my night stand. Ammo is in the same safe with those firearms that are locked up. And some of those firearms in the safe are loaded. But they are all treated as if they are loaded. And my wife's guns are loaded too.

(no kids in the house and no silly storage laws. exterior grade keyed door knobs on the BR and the room that has the hardware locker.)

 

[upcountry]

Washben, is there a way to get a copy of that form without crawling through Google and FB?

 

[S&WMan]

With the new ERPO law in MA you must say a convincingly NO. If you ever show up and something bad God forbid has happened in your life. You may appear saddened, distraught, and rightly so depressed. That idiot can look back in your record and see that you own firearms. The idiot can call the PD and they can collect your firearms. Which you can say bye bye to.

 

[wahsben]

Washben, is there a way to get a copy of that form without crawling through Google and FB?

Where it says view:https://etc. Underneath where it says SCRIBD you can click on that and it brings you to the form. You have to sign up to download it. I didn't sign up I just copied and pasted it on here.

 

[bluenose]

Well, I had my annual physical today and got the "Are there firearms in the house?" question. I wanted to say no, but my wife and I see the same doctor and she previously answered yes when she got asked. I reluctantly said yes because I knew the doctor already knew the answer. Then came the follow up questions... are they locked up, is the ammo locked up separate from the guns, yadda, yadda.

I told the doctor I didn't want this added to my medical record, and she said it wouldn't be and that it was for her "own personal notes". I don't believe that, but there's not much I can do about that now. I really wanted to say no and none of your business, but I'm sure she would have called me out on it, especially after my wife saying the opposite.

Moral of the story... don't see the same doctor as your spouse!

I would have asked her if she had a d