Do you use your 1911 thumb safety when C&L?

[joe6486]

My gal would love to carry my 1911 (and she looks damn good wearing it!), but she has the usual concerns about carrying a firearm that's cocked & locked.

Obviously the gun is designed for it, but does that safe design require the use of the thumb safety? In other words, is it considered safe to carry C&L without engaging the thumb safety too?

She has a big aversion to having to manipulate a safety while drawing, but we're both concerned that there's a lot of added risk of ND when reholstering, etc. if the safety is not used.

Thanks for any input.

 

[M1911]

Obviously the gun is designed for it, but does that safe design require the use of the thumb safety? In other words, is it considered safe to carry C&L without engaging the thumb safety too?

Cocked and locked with the safety off is not cocked and locked .

If she doesn't want to deal with a safety, I suggest she find a different gun (e.g., Glock, S&W M&P, etc.).

 

[drgrant]

It's not C1 or "cocked and locked" without the thumb safety engaged. I wouldn't carry a 1911 any other way.

If one doesn't want to mess with a safety one shouldn't be carrying a 1911.

-Mike

 

[joe6486]

Thanks. Just making sure!

 

[Supermoto]

with the proper grip, the safety will come off automatically when you present the gun.

 

[wolf223]

if she dosen't like an external safety, then she shouldn't carry a 1911 or any other gun with an external safety.

 

[Davidk]

i agree that if she doesn't like the safety she should not carry a 1911. when shopping, becareful as some guns that have a double action trigger also have a safety--such as the Taurus 24/7. Because the trigger is double action, the safety is not technically needed, but it is useful to help protect against a gun grab. Even though it is not needed, it is best practice to use it anyways because if you get used to ignoring it (not using it) and it gets activated by accident (not unusual) you wont be able fire. This could lose you the gun fight.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

She has a big aversion to having to manipulate a safety while drawing, but we're both concerned that there's a lot of added risk of ND when reholstering, etc. if the safety is not used.

The safety stays on until you are on target. When you come off of the target, safety goes on.

Supervise her during some dry firing sessions. Eventually, she will be drawing and manipulating the safety instinctively. This can take upwards of several thousand perfect repetitions before it becomes truly instinctive. The number depends on her level of experience.

Keep the finger off of the trigger when drawing and re-holstering, and you will not have any problems.

 

[bfm]

What about an LDA Para?

 

[45collector]

The LDA trigger system is D/A only. Although you could argue that it's not really D/A because once you pull the trigger on an empty chamber, you must cycle the slide again to reset the trigger.

I would advise engaging the safety while carrying an LDA chambered.

 

[wolf223]

LDA still has a thumb safety... it's a "DAO"... but this has the wretched safety...

 

[45collector]

LDA still has a thumb safety... it's a "DAO"... but this has the wretched safety...

Wretched as in it's tight as hell, and has to be in one particular fraction of a centimeter position to be removed from the gun? Yeah, tell me about it!

 

[nitsuD]

I am by no means an expert. I have less than a thousand rounds through my 1911 and don't carry on a daily basis. That said, After the first few dry fire sessions and visits to the range practicing draws I haven't thought about disengaging the safety. When the firearm comes on target my grip firms and the safety is automatically disengaged by design of the grip. It is by far the most effortless pistol I have ever shot. </$.02>

 

[vellnueve]

I agree with the others who say LDA. It has a very short learning curve moving from a standard 1911, especially if you get a single-stack.

 

[drgrant]

LDA = I guess I just never saw the point.

-Mike

 

[M1911]

LDA = I guess I just never saw the point.

You and me both. If you don't like cocked and locked, there are plenty of good alternatives to a 1911.

 

[jar]

You and me both. If you don't like cocked and locked, there are plenty of good alternatives to a 1911.

Me three. The 1911 isn't broken, so don't try to fix it. If you don't like it, buy one of those plastic things.

 

[Will Brink]

My gal would love to carry my 1911 (and she looks damn good wearing it!), but she has the usual concerns about carrying a firearm that's cocked & locked.

Then she's not ready to carry a 1911 for SD. It's that simple. She needs more training/time/experience with the platform until she's confident and competent with the 1911 platform. It's not for everyone and not a beginners gun. Two, cocked and locked = manual thumb safety on.

If she does not plan to put additional time into training, regularly, I recommend you talk her into a glock/MnP/XD or snub .38 revolver.

 

[vellnueve]

You and me both. If you don't like cocked and locked, there are plenty of good alternatives to a 1911.

The LDA trigger is damned nice on its own, without the 1911 comparison.

 

[Pilgrim]

from the original post:

In other words, is it considered safe to carry C&L without engaging the thumb safety too?

The answer is yes, just not as safe as when it is 'locked'.

The design of the 1911 is so good that you really don't need the thumb lever for it to be still carried safely, as you still need to squeeze the grip in order to be able to make it fire. The first models of the 1911 didn't have a thumb safety, as Browning didn't think it was necessary.

He was right.

Carrying a 1911 'unlocked' is actually safer than carrying a Glock. With a 1911, you must squeeze the grip before you can pull the trigger to fire it. With a Glock, (and some other brands), all you need to do is pull the trigger.

I have accidentally clicked off my thumb safety several times while carrying, and am not concerned.

So, my original statement:

The answer is yes, just not as safe as when it is 'locked'.

 

[Bill Nance]

I always carried my 1911 in condition one. It's ready for a fast draw and shoot and perfectly safe.

For purse carry though, I'd be more inclined to recommend something other than a SA auto. Just too much stuff in every woman's purse I've seen to get in the way. Maybe a shrouded hammer revolver or the Smith DA/SA autos.

 

[mark056]

Chuck taylor has voiced the opinion on more than one occaision that "cocked and unlocked" was the original way Browning designed the pistol and that the thumb and grip safeties were added at the request of the US Army. I know that the grip safety was. I am quite sure that Mr. Taylor carries his 1911 cokced and locked (Condition One), though.

The only way to be really successful in the presentation of a 1911 style pistol or a Browning Hi-Power style pistol is to practice, practice, practice presentation. This requires literally thousands of repetitions.

This is the reason that many do prefer the revolver or a pistol like the Glock.

Mark L.

 

[M1911]

The only way to be really successful in the presentation of a 1911 style pistol or a Browning Hi-Power style pistol is to practice, practice, practice presentation. This requires literally thousands of repetitions.

Honestly, I don't think it requires that much to be safe and competent with a 1911 or Hi-Power. Certainly by the end of a class like LFI-1 or Gunsite 250, a shooter with no experience drawing or holstering will be competent with their 1911. They won't be Todd Jarrett, but they'll properly operate the safety.

It really isn't that hard. More repetitions are good, but you don't need thousands and thousands to get the hang of it.

 

[TimJ]

C&L is the only way....

When I was in the Army I was issued a 1911 with my M-60. I carried the 1911 C&L all the time (in training). I used to sleep with it in my fart sack attached to my wrist with a short lanyard (thanks Colonel Cooper) and never had the safety get knocked off safe. I also have carried the 1911 concealed quite abit.

I don't think it's any more difficult to learn the safety than it is to get used to a long gritty crappy DA trigger.

 

[M1911]

I don't think it's any more difficult to learn the safety than it is to get used to a long gritty crappy DA trigger.

Personally, I think you can learn to use the safety far faster than you can learn to manage the transition from DA to SA on a DA semi-auto. YMMV.

 

[mark056]

Honestly, I don't think it requires that much to be safe and competent with a 1911 or Hi-Power. Certainly by the end of a class like LFI-1 or Gunsite 250, a shooter with no experience drawing or holstering will be competent with their 1911. They won't be Todd Jarrett, but they'll properly operate the safety.

It really isn't that hard. More repetitions are good, but you don't need thousands and thousands to get the hang of it.

Each of us are different in terms of coordination, muscle memory etc. What you are suggesting flies in the face of respected trainers of the 1911 and that would include Ayoob himself.

The ability to draw and fire under stress is much different than even in a training situation. More than a few IPSC shooters have even fumbled the presentation in a match when under duress. The issue here isn't proper presentation most of the time, but proper presentation all of the time. If it appears to you that I am overstating the case, then perhaps you are understating it. In combat too, Murphy's Law seems to work optimally. There is no substitute for experience, but since most of us have, thank God, not had to use a handgun in combat, the best way to compensate for it is to practice, practice, practice...it's really that simple.

I don't know what your experience level is, or again how well coordinated you are under stress, in your case, you may be fully competent, but I am speaking in generalities here. We fight like we train, and we have to train and that requires practice. This is a time honored concept that has been proven time and time again. The 1911 as a defensive pistol is not a handgun for the novice, but requires dedication as its manual of arms is different from that of other types of handguns. There was a very good reason why the Army always mandated Condition Three carry (although frequently ignored).

It may be that the transition of double action to single action of a traditional DA auto is harder to learn than presenting a 1911 in Condition One. Personally, I have never found it to be much of an issue which only shows the variance of the human condition.

For the record, I have always carried a 1911 in Condition One and that includes carry of said pistol professionally as an officer in the United States Army. I am not advocating Condition Three or Condition Two (hammer down on a live round and thumb cocking the pistol), but then I practiced presentation. I am just saying that if you are going to carry a 1911 make absolutely sure that you know the manual of arms for it stone cold.

You may disagree, which of course is your perogative.

Mark L.

 

[M1911]

.I don't know what your experience level is, or again how well coordinated you are under stress, in your case, you may be fully competent, but I am speaking in generalities here.

Thanks for the vote of confidence .

I've got about 200 hours of firearms training, including LFI-1 and 2, Sigarms Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry, Cumberland Tactics Tactical Handgun 101. I've competed in IDPA a fair bit. I'm also an NRA certified firearms instructor and range safety officer. Is that enough for you?

We fight like we train, and we have to train and that requires practice. This is a time honored concept that has been proven time and time again. The 1911 as a defensive pistol is not a handgun for the novice, but requires dedication as its manual of arms is different from that of other types of handguns.

Gosh. Nothing I wrote in any way implied otherwise.

Yes, training is important. Yes, you should train like you fight. Yes, you need to continue to train and practice. Yes, you'll get better with more training.

But no, operating the safety on 1911, even under stress, does not require thousands and thousands of repetitions. Yes, you should continue training even after you first become competent with the safety. You will certainly get faster and better with more repetitions, but operating the safety isn't rocket science.

Yes, it will take more than an afternoon to learn to properly operate the safety. No, it won't take 200 hours to learn to properly operate the safety. Yes, it will take a lot of time to become a fast and accurate shot, and be able to repeat that marksmanship under stress. But operating the safety is not the hard part.

There was a very good reason why the Army always mandated Condition Three carry (although frequently ignored).

How many soldiers in the army get as much handgun training as found in LFI-1 or Gunsite 250? The average grunt shoots how many rounds through a pistol at basic training? The fact that the Army generally does very little training on handling of pistols does not mean that it takes a very long time to learn how to use the safety on a 1911.

 

[wolf223]

How many soldiers in the army get as much handgun training as found in LFI-1 or Gunsite 250? The average grunt shoots how many rounds through a pistol at basic training? The fact that the Army generally does very little training on handling of pistols does not mean that it takes a very long time to learn how to use the safety on a 1911.

it depends on the unit and role, as the standard platform is the M16 or M4.

the more specialised units do train year round on various platforms...

For example: Military Police vs. Special Ops vs. a Staff Officer in a Quartermaster Unit vs. Infantry Rifleman

I carried an M9 everywhere as medic except on real world deployments. Frankly, I'm glad as I sucked shooting them... Plus, 210 rounds of 5.56 beats 45 rounds of 9mm anyway.

 

[Jay G]

Funny, I've never once had to think about the safety on my S&W model 360.

Or my model 38.

Or my Kel-Tec P3AT.

Or even the new G30.

Don't get me wrong - my Colt Gold Cup is one of my very favorite guns. But if I want .45 ACP goodness in my carry gun, it's the G30 with 9+1 in the gun and 15 more in the back-up magazine... 25 rounds of .45 ACP goodness...

 

[M1911]

For example: Military Police vs. Special Ops vs. a Staff Officer in a Quartermaster Unit vs. Infantry Rifleman

I carried an M9 everywhere as medic except on real world deployments.

My point exactly. Outside of some specialized units, the average army grunt receives very little training on a pistol at all, let alone how to safely draw and reholster. So it is no surprise that, with little training, they have in the past had many incidents.