Do you get DELAYED ?

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I've been meaning to start this thread for a little bit now, I just haven't had the time. I also wanted to make sure I, or anyone who adds to this thread, don't come off bashing on any of our LGS.
This is simply a piece of information I wish I knew or had found on this forum.

I wanna be clear that the people at Pullman Arms in Worcester are SOLID, they're very helpful and friendly, I consider one of the guys there a friend, they have a great selection and great prices.
But I have to say I wish I knew about the owners "policy" before I got something transferred through them. according to the owners policy, if during a transfer or purchase you get DELAYED, the owner will not allow the firearm to be released.

I'll skip my story and get to the point

Turns out, they hold the firearm(s) until your 4473 form changes from DELAYED to PROCEED. Which it may be NEVER.
The owner does not follow the "May Release rule". You know, if you are delayed you just wait 3 days and come get it.

I was hoping we could have a thread with places that also do this. So guys who regularly get delayed can avoid possibly having to wait 30 to 60 days (if not more) to get their firearm.


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Interesting. I wonder if they got sued or something once or some veiled threat of trouble. . . or know someone who had some sort of trouble.

Because otherwise, I don't see the advantage of following the law and providing the firearm after 3 days.

Never been delayed. I once had some guy not entirely know what he was doing with the phone call that asked me additional questions. And I had one FFL that wanted me to put my SS# on the form because "a lot of people get delayed and this will save you the time."
 
Out of my last 6 purchases, I've never gotten a Delayed response. I have had to wait an extended amount of time for them to get to Proceed. Usually it was a system problem. One of the dealers uses the online system. 1 time it was busy so I waited for @30 minutes. Another time it went right thru and came back immediately. At another dealer who calls their stuff in, I have had to wait from 5 minutes(not busy) to an hour(really busy). Another time the system was down and I had to wait @2 hours. Worst one was I bought a gun on the day of the big system update in July. Dealer didn't even know it was happening. I couldn't pick up that purchase until the next day.
 
Interesting. I wonder if they got sued or something once or some veiled threat of trouble. . . or know someone who had some sort of trouble.

It's a BS/liability avoidance tactic by some dealers. They don't want to deal with the agita of the feds calling them up on, say, day 5 after the gun's been delayed and then released on a default proceed, and the feds then telling them "well we have to get that guy's gun back, he's actually a denied". Dealer I know who default proceeds has had this happen a couple times on extended delays where they never called him back. One time guy came to pick up the gun after like 5 days, left the shop, couple more days pass and the ATF called him up going FR asking if he got his gun or not because he was actually denied.

-Mike
 
Out of my last 6 purchases, I've never gotten a Delayed response. I have had to wait an extended amount of time for them to get to Proceed. Usually it was a system problem. One of the dealers uses the online system. 1 time it was busy so I waited for @30 minutes. Another time it went right thru and came back immediately. At another dealer who calls their stuff in, I have had to wait from 5 minutes(not busy) to an hour(really busy). Another time the system was down and I had to wait @2 hours. Worst one was I bought a gun on the day of the big system update in July. Dealer didn't even know it was happening. I couldn't pick up that purchase until the next day.

If you were getting handguns in NH the NH nics POC for handguns is pretty much garbage (way understaffed) and there are a lot of "administrative delays" that have nothing to do with whether or not someone matches even partially in the indexes they use.

-Mike
 
No delays for me but my last name is alphabet soup.

How many days have gone by?

It's within his right not to proceed:

If the FFL has not received a final determination from the NICS after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must check “no resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473.
 
I didn't know that family members are suing the FBI over this.

Another time... another place, they would have sued the FFL too if it wasn't for the PLCAA.


The Latest: Store manager details church shooter’s gun buy

CHARLESTON, S.C. — The Latest in the federal trial of a man accused of gunning down nine South Carolina church members during Bible study (all times local):

___

12:30 p.m.

The manager of a store that sold a handgun to the man accused of killing nine people at a South Carolina church says a typical background check was done on the buyer.

Ronnie Thrailkill (THRELL-kell) testified Monday that Dylann Roof filled out the paperwork required by federal law when he came into Shooter’s Choice in April 2015.

Roof had been arrested for drugs two months earlier, but Lexington County Sheriff Jay Koon told The Associated Press that a jail clerk entered incorrect information that wasn’t ever fixed in a state database.

When Roof sought to buy the gun, an FBI examiner spotted the arrest, but called the wrong agency to get his record. Without the necessary documents, the purchase had to go through after three days as is federally required.

Victims’ families are suing the FBI for negligence in allowing the sale. FBI Director James Comey has said Roof should have never been allowed to buy the gun and promised a full review.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0a126eaf9f7_story.html?utm_term=.55fd648512dc
 
It's a BS/liability avoidance tactic by some dealers. They don't want to deal with the agita of the feds calling them up on, say, day 5 after the gun's been delayed and then released on a default proceed, and the feds then telling them "well we have to get that guy's gun back, he's actually a denied". Dealer I know who default proceeds has had this happen a couple times on extended delays where they never called him back. One time guy came to pick up the gun after like 5 days, left the shop, couple more days pass and the ATF called him up going FR asking if he got his gun or not because he was actually denied.

-Mike

But isn't that the ATF's problem at that point?? "You never called back. 3 days. He got his gun. End of story."
 
But isn't that the ATF's problem at that point?? "You never called back. 3 days. He got his gun. End of story."

I agree but it creates administrative overhead and bullshit for the dealer. Even if he has no legal responsibility he still he's still forced to interact with ATF thugs etc, ad nauseam. That's probably why some places don't default proceed; they figure the .02% lost business is probably a lot smaller than the agita cost of having it fail even once. some dealers might also assume (rightly or wrongly) that it puts a target on their back with the feds.

-Mike
 
But isn't that the ATF's problem at that point?? "You never called back. 3 days. He got his gun. End of story."

If so then hopefully this dealer either changes his ways or people go elsewhere. We don't need dealers making up their own BS on top of the already annoying federal and state laws.
 
I didn't know that family members are suing the FBI over this.

Another time... another place, they would have sued the FFL too if it wasn't for the PLCAA.




https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...0a126eaf9f7_story.html?utm_term=.55fd648512dc


Doesn't Sovereign Immunity apply here? As appropriate as it is that they should sue the FBI for ****ing up the background check as well as the state for not sending in the proper information to NICS, aren't both institutions immune to such a lawsuit?
 
If so then hopefully this dealer either changes his ways or people go elsewhere. We don't need dealers making up their own BS on top of the already annoying federal and state laws.

A lot of box stores already do this with transfers. No operator saying proceed, no gun for you.

Not saying its right but there are are a lot that are already doing this practice (and have been for years) because they figure turning away the 1% isn't going to cost
them much- because it doesn't happen to that many people.

-Mike
 
Doesn't Sovereign Immunity apply here? As appropriate as it is that they should sue the FBI for ****ing up the background check as well as the state for not sending in the proper information to NICS, aren't both institutions immune to such a lawsuit?

A citizen can sue, if the government allows it, and for negligence.

Given what took place, and that the FBI admitted it ****ed up, it would have been very bad for PR if they fought it.
 
A lot of box stores already do this with transfers. No operator saying proceed, no gun for you.

Not saying its right but there are are a lot that are already doing this practice (and have been for years) because they figure turning away the 1% isn't going to cost
them much- because it doesn't happen to that many people.

-Mike

I understand that, and I think that's stupid too but they at least have the excuse that they operate in a number of states with different laws and trying to set policy for stores in each state differently on an item like firearms that they will get roasted if they screw up is a bad plan.

As far as a local gun store if the person hasn't been denied and the law says they can let it go after 3 days, whats the real issue? So one in a thousand times the ATF calls about it, you give the ATF all the info you have on said person, and they deal with it, you wasted a little time and it isn't really your problem as you have scrupulously followed federal law.
 
For God knows what reason I've always been delayed.
I have an unique name, a clean record and I have always included my SSN in hopes of not getting delayed.
My dad told me his first 9 or 10 transaction he was delayed as well but never again after that.


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WRT to the OP, this list so far consists only of "some big box stores" and Pullman Arms in Worcester? No other shops follow this practice?
 
Last edited:
WRT to the OP, this list so far consists only of "some big box stores" and Pullman Arms in Worcester? No other shops follow this practice?


Dick's definitely won't release until they get a proceed. Also why I won't ever be buying a gun from there again. Just not worth the risk.
 
I understand that, and I think that's stupid too but they at least have the excuse that they operate in a number of states with different laws and trying to set policy for stores in each state differently on an item like firearms that they will get roasted if they screw up is a bad plan.

As far as a local gun store if the person hasn't been denied and the law says they can let it go after 3 days, whats the real issue? So one in a thousand times the ATF calls about it, you give the ATF all the info you have on said person, and they deal with it, you wasted a little time and it isn't really your problem as you have scrupulously followed federal law.
This. Jack.
 
I understand that, and I think that's stupid too but they at least have the excuse that they operate in a number of states with different laws and trying to set policy for stores in each state differently on an item like firearms that they will get roasted if they screw up is a bad plan.

As far as a local gun store if the person hasn't been denied and the law says they can let it go after 3 days, whats the real issue? So one in a thousand times the ATF calls about it, you give the ATF all the info you have on said person, and they deal with it, you wasted a little time and it isn't really your problem as you have scrupulously followed federal law.

My understanding is that if denied, the BATFE ORDERS the store to retrieve the gun. It's not a matter of them merely telling the BATFE it was transferred under law and it's now BATFE's problem. So they make it the dealer's problem. Big box stores don't want to deal with trying to retrieve guns. So they make a policy not to give the gun up until a proceed is issued.
 
so if they are not complying with the law and giving you the gun after three days have gone by can you cancel (after the three day delay) the sale and get a full refund??
 
My understanding is that if denied, the BATFE ORDERS the store to retrieve the gun. It's not a matter of them merely telling the BATFE it was transferred under law and it's now BATFE's problem. So they make it the dealer's problem. Big box stores don't want to deal with trying to retrieve guns. So they make a policy not to give the gun up until a proceed is issued.

While i believe that they would do something like that, a gun store has no enforcement authority. They can call and ask the person nicely to bring it back, but past that they don't have goons with unlimited scope to kick doors and steal property like the Feds do. How does the ATF expect someone to get it back besides the person who bought it saying "Oh, Ok ill come turn it in."?
 
While i believe that they would do something like that, a gun store has no enforcement authority. They can call and ask the person nicely to bring it back, but past that they don't have goons with unlimited scope to kick doors and steal property like the Feds do. How does the ATF expect someone to get it back besides the person who bought it saying "Oh, Ok ill come turn it in."?

A good question. Purely a guess, but if the person refuses, the dealer most likely has to inform BATFE and then BATFE likely will contact the local PD to secure the gun and perhaps BATFE might threaten prosecution. Unsure.
 
A good question. Purely a guess, but if the person refuses, the dealer most likely has to inform BATFE and then BATFE likely will contact the local PD to secure the gun and perhaps BATFE might threaten prosecution. Unsure.

That makes sense. It just seemed silly to have a dealer be on the hook for retrieval past asking them to return it.
 
Things like this policy should be posted or communicated to the customer prior to the purchase being made. Failure to do so is poor business practice.
 
Things like this policy should be posted or communicated to the customer prior to the purchase being made. Failure to do so is poor business practice.

It should, but I wonder how many local stores really do it, so far we only have one local and dicks, with bass pro apparently being a toss up but also does this.
 
I understand that, and I think that's stupid too but they at least have the excuse that they operate in a number of states with different laws and trying to set policy for stores in each state differently on an item like firearms that they will get roasted if they screw up is a bad plan.

As far as a local gun store if the person hasn't been denied and the law says they can let it go after 3 days, whats the real issue? So one in a thousand times the ATF calls about it, you give the ATF all the info you have on said person, and they deal with it, you wasted a little time and it isn't really your problem as you have scrupulously followed federal law.

That's all well and good, until a mob of liberals burns down your store because you gave a gun to the next Dylann Roof. Just because you followed the law doesn't mean you won't loose everything and have to start over from square one. Sure insurance will cover your loss. But then you have to start the process all over again if you want to reopen. Probably have to find a new bank after the one you were using drops you. Then there are the death threats and having your name and your company's name demonized in the media for a year or so.

The box stores could shake it off a bit easier, but for a small LGS it could be game over. Academy Sports sells a shitload of guns. We are doing an easy 30-40 guns a day at my store right now. We get a LOT of delays and quite a few denials also. It's rare that we get the denial as an immediate response. It happens on occasion buy usually they come back as denied after several days, frequently more than 3 days. Our delayed folder probably has 50 4473s from the past 2 weeks and the denial folder has over a dozen.

The "policy" may make less sense in states like MA where you need a license just to buy ammo, never mind guns. But in a state like SC where anyone with a state issued ID can walk in and out with a gun in a matter of 30 min I can see why some stores don't want to open themselves up to the extra liability. Don't get me wrong. Law abiding citizens should be able to just walk in and buy what they want. But we do get a lot of shitbags coming in also. We just sent a couple's info to the ATF a few days ago. They were suspected of straw purchasing for a while but no one had said anything to anyone. Not going to go into all the details as that would be a lot of typing but we had some pretty solid evidence. Then I saw them hand off the gun they had just bought to someone in the parking lot. I took pictures of the plates on both vehicles and forwarded the pics and all their info to the ATF that day.

In this day and age, anyone who chooses to sell guns has committed themselves to doing business in a very volatile market. So I'll give them a little leeway when it comes to covering their ass. I'm just glad there are still people willing to put themselves out there and take the risk so I can still buy my guns.
 
I had the same thing happen at Pullman. I get it, its there policy, but they should tell you that before you start the process. I waited 2 weeks for them to get a response (proceed) from the feds.
 
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