Do you carry hollow points?

Cuz

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I feel very bad for this guy.. would not want to be put in that situation.
+101 to that.
But, with that said I think it's important to go over these situations when they do happen and ask yourself "what would I have done"? It's all part of the training. Sometimes you create situations in your head and wonder what you would do, and sometimes you have an actual situation that took place that you can draw from. As I look over the scenario a few things stuck out that I would do differently. I know I would have been hiking with a stick in my hand which could have helped Fish out, but to each his own. The most prominent thing I wonder about is if Fishes less than confident demeaner as he pleaded with the bad guy could have led the BG to think Fish wouldn't shoot...
 

Garys

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This is true, however the BG was 30 yards away, (3 seconds), Mr. Fish is old and probably not very strong.
I'm not familiar with the intricacies of AZ law, but I would think that the continum of force that LEOs are constrained by does not apply to civilians. If Mr. Fish felt that his life was in danger and escape was not an option, then I'd think he would be justified in using deadly force.

Too bad for the other guy.

Gary
 
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Sigma is usually loaded with 17 9mm Federal Premium JHPs and a 17rd mag of WWB FMJ as backup.

For my 520, two speedloaders are loaded with seven .357 Hydra-Shoks apiece and then the third has six and a WWB .38 Sp just so it makes an even seven (which actually doesn't make sense come to think of it)

Course, 00 buckshot is still the best way to go.
 

Rob Boudrie

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Needless to say, we un-assed the area ASAP. I wasn't armed that day, and later on I re-read the Army Corps of Engineers rules on the area, which prohibit firearms. Well, guess what, now I carry whenever I am in an exposed area like that, f*** the rules.
The defendant in the Westfall dam case paid a $50 civil fine for posession of the gun on federal property after shooting a dog in self defense, however, one must consider that he retained the services of a high powered attorney.
 
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The defendant in the Westfall dam case paid a $50 civil fine for posession of the gun on federal property after shooting a dog in self defense, however, one must consider that he retained the services of a high powered attorney.
That's what it all comes down to, lots of cash and a good lawyer.
 

Rob Boudrie

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Is Scrivner around? Scriv, how would this have played out here in MA? Any comments?
I expect this would largely depend on how much money the defendant has to pay for a legal team, expert wittnesses and private investigators to assist in preparing the case.
 
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I think that you folks that are second guessing Mr. Fish's decisions were not there and therefore have no right to say "he should have used pepper spray, etc. etc. etc." If a guy runs at me screaming he's going to kill me, I'll probably take his word for it. If I just fired a round into the ground to scare his dogs off, he probably knows I have a gun and yet he is still charging me. I am not going to be looking at what he has in his hands. I am going to be running away from him as fast as I can after a long hike (which won't be very fast or very far). If he gets too close, I would feel I have no other choice than to shoot. You guys are unbelievable. I was almost expecting someone to suggest to shoot him in the leg or something. You guys need to get grounded in reality.
 
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You guys need to get grounded in reality.
We are grounded in reality dear. We live in MA. MA reality is that you're guilty unless you've got 101 witnesses that will swear that you were defending your life. Reality in MA is (in most cities and towns) that you're instantly evil because you're a gun owner. Reality in MA is you don't have the right to defend your life or others. Reality in MA is the perp has more rights than you do. THAT'S reality in MA.

If a SOB is running at me screaming that he's going to kill me, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'm not reaching for the mace.
 

BillO

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+1 Lynne. Isn't that why the AG passed the firearm "consumer protection laws" so we can have "safe" guns? How about the "cop killer" bullets? Remember the Black Tallon media spin? Insane, purely friggin insane.
 

LoginName

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NJ prohibits Hollowpoints? [shocked]
Not really. Hollowpoints are legal to posess and purchase in NJ, but they are restricted to posession in ones home/property, use at a range and transporting them to and from ones property and range.

I'm not sure if that applys to handguns, longuns or both.
 
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"If a SOB is running at me screaming that he's going to kill me, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'm not reaching for the mace."

Lynne, That is what I said, DEAR. Don't you guys read the posts before responding to them?
 
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This is true, however the BG was 30 yards away, (3 seconds), Mr. Fish is old and probably not very strong. In his mind a charging lunatic could only be stopped by a sidearm. Pepper spray in this case probably would have just made the attacker more angry.

Remember this all happened pretty quickly. It wasn't like he was condition orange or red and walking through south central. He was on a relaxing walk in the woods not even in condition white then all hell broke loose.
Plus, on the TV version of the story, they said the guy was yelling he was going to kill Mr. Fish as he was running at him. Did he have a choice? It is his word vs. a dead guy's.

The part about the hollow points is bothersome, and especially when they talked to the jury members about it. Good point about asking the reporter (the jurors should have asked someone this) what the local law enforcement uses and why they use it.




...I hear noise coming up behind me, just something hauling ass up the trail making a lot of running type noises.

I'm like...what the hell...?? Well two dogs come bounding around the corner and basically run right up to me, with one standing up and jumping all around me. ...

I was somewhat off balance for a moment though and wondering if I was going to get bitten. ...

I am not prone to panic but I was unnerved that these dogs came on me so fast, out in the middle of nowhere.

... She really had NO control over them at all.

...But it IS scary when you have dogs coming straight at you with no attempt to stop or slow down. You have no idea if they are coming in for a bite or to be friendly.

Message to dog owners: Keep them under control (on leashes) or leave them home!
3 horses mauled by dog at Md. farm




I'm not familiar with the intricacies of AZ law, but I would think that the continum of force that LEOs are constrained by does not apply to civilians. If Mr. Fish felt that his life was in danger and escape was not an option, then I'd think he would be justified in using deadly force.

Too bad for the other guy.

Gary
The assailant said he was going to kill Mr. Fish (as he charged towards Mr. Fish) (according to Mr. Fish).


That's what it all comes down to, lots of cash and a good lawyer.
I bet Scrivener's ears just perked up a little now.
 
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drgrant

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IMO it sounds like Fish got railroaded here. This is a prime example of how
things can go horribly wrong.

Reading the accounts of the jurors is somewhat bizarre. I get
the impression they live in liberal fairy tale land or something. I'm surprised
that the damn jury wasnt hung.

I guess the issue of burden of proof for self defense is a huge thing
here. The problem is, often times it's difficult to determine wether using
deadly force is appropriate or not. Yeah, he could have stood there and
then seen what the dogs did or did not do to him, or what the other guy
did, for that matter.... but the problem with that is if there was ill intent
it might have been too damn late to do anything about it if he waited.

There are a couple of things that he could have done differently... eg, no
warning shots (it's hard to get people to believe that something is a real
threat if you only fired a "warning shot" at it) and not blathered a ton outside
of counsel... but in the end would that have really made a difference? I
know a screwjob when I see one, and Fish definitely got boned by the
system here.

-Mike
 
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Yes, my little 9mm pocket protector has 5 mean 147gr HP Federals [thinking]

I'm getting a bigger carry piece someday. [rolleyes]

RJ
 

KMaurer

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I particularly liked the BS about his 10mm being so much more powerful than the guns carried by police. Time for another reality check. Most police carry 10mm handguns. The only difference is that they're stuffed into a slightly shorter cartridge in order to fit into a shorter action and smaller, lighter gun, then given a different name, i.e., .40 caliber. Factory .40 S&W loads pretty much duplicate the external ballistics of the old FBI 10mm load.

Ken
 
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There are two things that were in the media accounts that haven't been mentioned here,1 Mr Fish wearing a 50 lb backpack
2 he also has one bad arm. There wre reports that some of the jurors found him guilty on the fact he was carrying hp ie he wanted to cause pain and suffering.
Yes hp combination of speer flying ash tray hydro shoks and golden sabres all in 45 acp for 625 and 1911
 

drgrant

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There wre reports that some of the jurors found him guilty on the fact he was carrying hp ie he wanted to cause pain and suffering.
This sounds like the Attorney dodged that issue, if it was ever brought
up.

I don't get this "JHPs cause pain and suffering" business. People act as
though if someone was shot with a regular bullet that that wouldn't
hurt, either? Just bizarre. I'm surprised they didnt have an expert witness to explain how police use JHPs in an effort to end conflicts more effectively with less risk to innocent bystanders, and that using JHP might
actually be more humane because it would possibly result in the target
getting shot less times for the same net stopping effect.

Funny thing is if the guy was using 10mm ball ammo, I'd bet theyd find
something to whine about that,too. "He used jacketed bullets to make sure
that his bullets would go extra deep into the flesh of his target!"


-Mike
 
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people have no clue as to bullet styles fmj hp etc or why a particular type is carried. Most of the non shooters i know think that hp ammo is illegal per Geneva Covention. I politly explain that's rules of war no such rule for civilians
 
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Jhp

Slight correction. It wasn't the Geneca Convention but the Hague Convention. I don't believe the United states ever signed it.

Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
 

centermass181

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What the f*** are you supposed to carry, nice bullets? We're talking about guns here. I use HP's all the time and won't stop using them.
well said.


I personally carry hollow point poison tipped exploding fin stabilized discarding sabot rounds, but usually only in .22
 
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Slight correction. It wasn't the Geneca Convention but the Hague Convention. I don't believe the United states ever signed it.

Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
Declare as follows:

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
I stand corrected
 
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