Do you carry hollow points?

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Ernie Encinas is the fire marshal for the Gilbert, Arizona fire department. He hired Kuenzli as a fire inspector in 1997. At first, he seemed like a good employee. But he says things changed quickly.

Encinas: He would get mad, he would clench his fist, he would hit the table, he would pace back and forth, his voice would elevate.

Encinas says when he read Harold Fish’s account of what happened on that hiking trail when he encountered Kuenzli, it was almost like a flashback for him.

Encinas: I could actually see in my mind’s eye Grant’s fist. I could see his face. I could see how he acted with me. So it wasn’t hard for me to imagine what Mr. Fish might have seen.

Steve Corich is the director of public safety at Mesa Community College. One morning in 2003, a security officer found Kuenzli walking his dog on campus without a leash. When the officer confronted him, Kuenzli became agitated.

Steve Corich, director of public safety at Mesa Community College: He was loud. His fists were clenched. All of his body language essentially conveyed that he was extremely angry. And it took quite a while to calm him down.

In his 26-year career, Corich says Grant Kuenzli stands out.

Corich: He had one of the hottest and quickest boiling points of any of the people I’ve ever dealt with.


Clayton Hamblen, justice of the peace: His look was one of “I would like to rip your throat out.”

Clayton Hamblen has been a justice of the peace in West Mesa for 15 years. One day, Grant Kuenzli showed up for a court hearing with his dog, when Hamblen suggested he leave the dog outside. He says the dog owner became aggressive.

Hamblen: He began to clench his fists. His eyes got a look that was just almost downright scary.

Hamblen says Kuenzli seemed more concerned for the well being of his dog than people.

Hamblen: I said “The man is either going to kill somebody or somebody is going to kill him.” And that was my feeling… that was just a gut reaction.

Then there are police reports from an ex-girlfriend, who says when she tried to break up with Kuenzli, he stalked her and broke into her house. She wrote in a court affidavit that Kuenzli once attacked a male friend of hers and she even told police Kuenzli sexually assaulted her. She obtained two orders from the court to keep him away.

And there is evidence that Kuenzli was mentally unstable in the past. A police report from 2002 says he threatened to commit suicide with a knife. And mental health records indicate that Kuenzli received treatment for a panic disorder, post traumatic stress disorder and a mood disorder.
Those statements are pretty consistant with what happened, and they are from people who didn't know Mr. Fish.

That is a good example of a bad situation... [thinking]
 
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Bullshit. Complete and utter f***ing bullshit. Some f***ing whack-a-mole with anti-social tendencies pulls his tough guy act on the wrong guy and pays with his life.

And because the good guy used hollowpoint ammo he goes to jail for 10 years? That's f***ing insane.

Kinda puts the whole "roll your own" ammo into perspective, eh?

I *am* surprised, though, that the defense attorneys didn't counter the "high-powered gun with hollowpoints" aspect by asking the local police what they carried...
 

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Yes I carry hollowpoints. Yes, a prosecutor could make the claim that they are "more dangerous". But a good Prosecutor could make that claim about almost any type of bullet.

The bottom line is that hollowpoints are actually safer.
They expand rapidly, dumping a lot of energy into the target, thus reducing the risk of over penetration and injuring or killing a bystander. This expansion and energy tranfer does do more damage to the intended target, but this is a good thing. In most cases, good hits with good expanding ammo will reduce the necessity of follow up shots.

Remember the Diallo case? 41 shots fired. The ammo was 9mm ball.

Also, what do cops carry? Hollowpoints. Why? Because of the above.

I feel that the Fish decision is not about the bullets, even though it may have swayed the jury somewhat. I don't know if the defense tried to demonstrate the above or if they neglected it. But, judging by the jurors comment, I think they skipped it and did not educate the jury.
 
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45 or 40 S&W hollowpoints except for travel back to NJ where they are prohibited.

Remember the Diallo case? 41 shots fired. Unfortunatly only a few hit their target.

Bottom line is that only two people knew what went on that day. Only one is still around. The courts will go back and forth for a few years with this case.

I would take what MSNBC reports with a grain of salt...they were loacated in my town and I had some dealings with them. Most were a bunch of As*holes.
 
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I'd bet that if you asked him what he would do if he was in that situation again he would have just walked away and said nothing to anybody.
 
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I can't believe for the life of me that hollow points even came up as an issue. Like Big Daddy says- the energy is supposed to be for the intended target not pierce through and possibly hit bystanders! It's a moot point. Defensive round SHOULD be hollow points.

Regardless- that wasn't the issue on trial although is could have impacted some of the jurors views on the defendant. Whether he needed to shoot and what exactly happened is almost speculation. However I found this interesting (it was at the end of the article):

"Arizona law was changed recently, in part, because of this case. Now, instead of a defendant having to prove he acted in self-defense, the burden is on the prosecutors. They must prove a defendant did not act in self-defense. Arizona’s Supreme Court is expected to rule later this month on whether the new law applies to a similar case. That ruling could affect Harold Fish’s appeal. "
 

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I feel very bad for this guy.. would not want to be put in that situation.
As do I.
And I have been in that type of situation as many LEOs are every day of every year. I didn't shoot and thankfully most of them don't either. The ones that do, make the front pages and are scrutinized, prosecuted and lose their jobs.
This was a tragic situation. I wonder if the outcome would have been different had he not had the pistol in his hand after firing the warning shot.
 

Big Daddy 45acp

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Whether he needed to shoot and what exactly happened is almost speculation.
That is indeed the question.

According to Fish (quoted) the attack came from about 30 yards away.
Fish should have been able to avoid or trip up someone running at him downhill from that distance.

He had time to yell at Kuenzli about not shooting his dogs, but no verbal warning about shooting him?

Kuenzli had no visible weapon, and the dogs ran off. A situation like this usually means there is a disparity of force. Age, physical condition and size all play a role. Did it exist?

Also, if Kuenzli was not known by Fish, prior to this incident, I can understand why the jury wasn't allowed to hear all of Kuenzli's background.

I don't believe Fish was guilty of 2nd Degree Murder. I believe that he is a victim of either poor training or complacency.

Poor Training-Why didn't he try to seek cover, given a 30 yard advantage?
He could or should have been able to move out of the line of attack and seek cover. If he truly feared for his life, he could have drawn his gun and forcefully notified Kuenzli of the potential results if Kuenzli had still pressed the attack.

The other aspect of his identifiable lack of good training, is his lack of a Self-Defense system or layered response. Pepper Spray of an impact device (hiking staff) could have saved Fish 10 years and Kuenzli his life.

Another training issue is that many schools are guncentric. They incorporate nothing else into the curriculm. No or very limited movement. No avoidance techniques. Just draw and shoot. Draw and shoot. As a result of this, many "trained" people think the gun is the solution to every event where they feel threatened.

Complacency-Fish may have thought his 10mm was adequate for protection from four legged predators, but he was ill prepared for the two legged variety.
This is evident by his statements and actions. Both, by the way can directly relate to his training (lack of?).

Many people become complacent with their firearms. How many buy a gun and don't train or even shoot it to see if it works. If you ask them, they will say they are protected because of the gun, not their training with it.

I am not trying to nit pick this case, but looking at it from an Instructor's point of view, I see things that went wrong. Things that could have been done differently. Things from which we can learn.
 
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What the f*** are you supposed to carry, nice bullets? We're talking about guns here. I use HP's all the time and won't stop using them.
 
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Ofcourse I carry hollow points....jumpin jimminey. I want something that's going to stop the perp, and FMJ's only good when you run out of the HP's.
 

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I am not trying to nit pick this case, but looking at it from an Instructor's point of view, I see things that went wrong. Things that could have been done differently. Things from which we can learn.
I think that's the most important thing to take from this guy's expericence. It's easy to sit back and say what he did and didn't do correctly. We weren't in his shoes and we don't know how threatened he was. The bottom line is we all should be aware that things like this story can happen. It's good to get your mellon working on how you might handle a situation like this, god forbid it ever happens to you.
 
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Hollowpoints if the gun functions reliably with them otherwise ball. Speer, Winchester, or Remington hollowpoints in order of preference, or S&B if I am using ball.

I agree strongly with Big Daddy .45ACP. Mr. Fish would have been better served starting off a little bit lower on the use of force spectrum against a single unarmed opponent. I don't believe he should have had to, but this is the hostile world we live in and if you truly want to be prepared you may need options other then a gun.
 

PatMcD

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If I carried a 9mm or less, I would probably opt for HP. With a .40 or 45, it makes a big enough hole on it's own. I currently carry a Kahr PM40 and feed it the cheapest stuff I can get, which is always ball ammo. I buy it cheap and try to shoot it a lot.
 

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but this is the hostile world we live in and if you truly want to be prepared you may need options other then a gun.
This is true, however the BG was 30 yards away, (3 seconds), Mr. Fish is old and probably not very strong. In his mind a charging lunatic could only be stopped by a sidearm. Pepper spray in this case probably would have just made the attacker more angry.

Remember this all happened pretty quickly. It wasn't like he was condition orange or red and walking through south central. He was on a relaxing walk in the woods not even in condition white then all hell broke loose.
 

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Makes me think back to a crazy buddy of mine who always had a special blend for his magazines ......... first two rounds FMJ's, followed by three HP, followed by who knows what ................... maybe he was planning his defense.

I'm sorry your honor, I tried to stop him with the nice FMJ's, and when that did'nt work I had no choice but to send a few HP's his way

On second thought, he was just plain crazy.

Me ........ as many HP's as will fit in the magazine!
 
J

Jose

Okay I just read this story and it's totally ironic!!!!!

I was down at the state park in foxboro today, prescouting for squirrel hunting. I went down a side trail and was out by myself, trying to be quiet and find squirrels. I hear noise coming up behind me, just something hauling ass up the trail making a lot of running type noises.

I'm like...what the hell...?? Well two dogs come bounding around the corner and basically run right up to me, with one standing up and jumping all around me. Well thankfully they were two labs out running around. Neither of them tried to bite me.

I was somewhat off balance for a moment though and wondering if I was going to get bitten. Since they were labs I figured I'd be okay but I honestly don't know what I would have done if they had been pit bulls or german shepards.

I had some nasty (which shall remain nameless) in my pocket but I did not take it out or attempt to use it on the dogs. I am not prone to panic but I was unnerved that these dogs came on me so fast, out in the middle of nowhere.

Note that after they tried to love me to death for a few seconds, a woman came around the corner and they belonged to her. She is very fortunate that I am not someone that would whip out the nasty and hurt her dogs. She really had NO control over them at all.

They moved on and I chilled out, glad that they weren't anything worse than labs. But it IS scary when you have dogs coming straight at you with no attempt to stop or slow down. You have no idea if they are coming in for a bite or to be friendly.

Message to dog owners: Keep them under control (on leashes) or leave them home!
I had a very similar thing happen to my wife and I during what was supposed to be a great weekend hike in one of Kansas' best trails.

About an hour into the hike a pair of dogs rush us through a clearing in the woods. I never saw anyone, but I yelled "you better call of your dogs" at the top of my lungs. I got between them and my wife and luckily found a fairly heavy branch on the ground. With that as a weapon I went after the meaner of the two, always keeping myself between them and the wife. I never connected, but the dogs must have gotten the message because they ran off after about 15 seconds.

Needless to say, we un-assed the area ASAP. I wasn't armed that day, and later on I re-read the Army Corps of Engineers rules on the area, which prohibit firearms. Well, guess what, now I carry whenever I am in an exposed area like that, f*** the rules.

I get cold shivers when I replay that scenario with my four yeard old daughter in the picture.

And yes, both my handgun and my AR are loaded with hollow points. I don't give two shits what it looks like to the prosecutor or jury. If pistol and rifle hollow point ammo is good enough for cops, then it is most certainly good enough for me.

This guy got ass-raped by a prosecutor wanting to make a big name for himself.
 
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