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Do not try to protect property in Lawrence MA

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by appraiser, Nov 8, 2011.

  1. OB1Kenobi

    OB1Kenobi Banned

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    [​IMG]

    the cookie cutter approach is nothing new. this is the template for legal gun owners in MA.

    "at about _________ i was on patrol when i __________. upon existing my vehicle i noticed __________ " ....

    [laugh]
     

  2. MisterHappy

    MisterHappy NES Member

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    On the 16 yard line, shootin' for the Lewis!
    He should have called the cops, if there were unwanted persons on his property at 2 AM.

    I'm sure that he's never tried that, or, if he has tried it, the law arrived forthwith, and encoursged the scalliwags along on their way.

    [rolleyes]

    I agree that there's no real details here, but if he had a gun, he's the bad guy. Otherwise why did he have it? And only the guity need lawyers, too....
     
  3. yanici

    yanici NES Member

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    Be interesting to see if they did a BAC test or not. If not and he was legal it seems that the cop could be charged with assault. Too bad the guy needs to pay a lawyer. Probably doesn't have money for competent counsel.
     
  4. USMA-82

    USMA-82

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    I'm seeing alot of references to his right to "defend his property." Wrong answer. This ain't Texas.

    He had the right to defend himself with deadly force IF he felt he was threatened with death or serious injury, if the assailant had the ability to do said harm, and if the assailant had the opportunity to do said harm.

    The guy screwed up, and he will pay the price. I'm not saying the cop didn't screw up, but the guy should have called the cops in the first place, and avoided any confrontation unless he was being physically threatened.

    Please no more references to "the right to defend your property." As they teach in most firearms courses I've attended, if someone comes at you with a knife, that's one thing. But if you catch them carrying your flat screen TV down the street, call the cops, call your insurance company, and get a new one. Anything else will put YOU in a bad place legally, even though you're the victim!

    Welcome to Massachusetts...

    *
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
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  5. afrias123

    afrias123

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    Very good point.
     
  6. Palladin

    Palladin NES Member

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    The phrase I was given was 'guy was sh*tfaced'. He went after people for parking in his lot, the cop saw him go into a combative stance and confronted him.

    He should have posted his lot, then had the tow trucks line up...he didn't.
     
  7. theGringo

    theGringo

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    I think that about wraps it up.
     
  8. richc

    richc NES Member

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    In MA we are restricted in when/how we can use our firearms. We can certainly argue about the laws as they stand, but it is what it is now.

    Should we ever decide to draw our weapons we have to realize it may be the last time we are able to do so with a MA LTC intact. There is a risk, if not a likelihood, that our right to carry will be eliminated.

    So in a situation like this I think it is wise to consider... does is this situation serious enough for me to risk losing my license? In this case he did so over a few improperly parked cars.

    By choosing this place and time to do so, he likely has removed his future ability to protect himself and/or his family when they might really need it.
     
  9. theGringo

    theGringo

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    I would also apply the "judged by 12 vs. carried by six" standard. If you were on a jury in Texas, or Montana, or anywhere else, how would you evaluate the evidence if this event had escalated to a shooting with death resulting? The guys beef was that cars were parked on his property. It wasn't the first time. Was his property posted "No Parking"? Why didn't he call to have the cars towed? Was he drunk when he walked over to the bar? What would a rational person expect when confronting bar patrons outside a bar at 2 am? A lot of detail is missing from the news report, like was the guy belligerent? But it looks on the surface like he had other, safer (for himself and others) options for what is a pretty minor squabble in the first place.
     
  10. yanici

    yanici NES Member

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    If he didn't draw his gun or brandish it then he was legally carrying concealed with an LTC. If he is not proven under the influence then it seems he should be cleared of weapons charges. What am I missing? BTW, I didn't read the article because it's loading too slowly on my computer.
     
  11. BOBKATT

    BOBKATT

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    You have the right to confront the person nonviolently whether or not you or anyone else on this forum think its the best idea to do. There is nothing illegal about confronting someone verbally who is damaging your property. Just because you are legally carrying, doesn't make it any more illegal.

    The question is whether he actually did use force, specifically whether he did draw his gun. Or, whether the police officer either used his ESP to guess that the guy had a gun and then proceed to assault the man.

    If the man didn't draw the gun or make a threat with the gun, then what crime was committed (even in MA)? Just because you think the guy should have called the cops doesn't make it illegal if he didn't, even in MA and not in Texas.

    The facts appear to be that the gun was found on his belt and not in his hand and that mr. piggy kicked the guys stomach in and stating that he just felt as though the victim of the attack had a firearm and was going to draw it.

    Sorry, but if you're not taking the side of the victim on this one, you're advocating for cops to go around kicking peoples asses because they think you look like might commit a crime. Even though, you're doing nothing illegal at all.

    And it sure stinks like a cover up for the cops actions: "Someone" yelled "he has a gun", the cop felt that the victim looked like he was about to commit a crime (notice the lack of even a verbal threat or assault?), and the victim had the "odor" of alcohol.

    You really don't want to live in that world, and you really ought to think twice about advocating for it by suggestion that the guy "screwed up".
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
  12. economist

    economist

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    I don't believe the story, but let's say it's true. We've got a guy with an LTC sitting in jail until Thursday for carrying a gun after (maybe) drinking. He didn't draw, though a local fortune teller intuited he was about to (he must really suck at drawing to be so slow at it). So, he got kicked in the stomach for being slow at drawing his gun, got arrested, and Thursday some bureaucrats will determine (or begin to determine) how dangerous he is. If this slow-drawing guy who bothered to get a gun license and who may or may not have a drank now and then without locking up that dangerous gun -- I'm scared already -- if this guy turns out to be "dangerous", well he is basically imprisoned up to the point the state can rig up a trial to actually convict him of something. Or, more likely, they just screw him over until he pleas out, is denied second amendment rights for life, and probably spends a good chunk of his retirement assuming he has any.

    Clearly, he's screwed. Given that we taxpayers are paying for the screwing, can someone tell me why my money is getting spent this way?
     
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  13. theGringo

    theGringo

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    Fortune teller? Maybe it's situational awareness. If I see a guy with an attitude adopt a certain posture and move his arm in a certain way, I might start to draw some conclusions. Just sayin'.
     
  14. SeanT

    SeanT NES Member

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    As distasteful as it is, I believe the correct answer is that people get the government they vote for.
    Now let's go reflect on moving to a better, more free state [sad2]
     
  15. USMA-82

    USMA-82

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    OK, so put yourself in his place. It's after midnight. You've got a bunch of drunks next door getting loud and rowdy, and maybe parking on your property.

    Your first instinct is to slip a pistol in your belt, go outside and start yelling at them? Why would you voluntarily put yourself in that situation? Why wouldn't you just call the cops and let them handle it?

    I'm not sure what self-defense courses you've taken, but in every one that I've attended (about a dozen), one of the biggest lessons is to first AVOID trouble. Don't put yourself in a situation where you might have to get into an argument that escalates into something else.

    I've been carrying a concealed firearm in Massachusetts now for over ten years. I don't drink when I'm carrying, I avoid places that might be confrontational, and if I see a problem brewing, I leave immediately. Does that make me a coward? Or maybe someone who only wants to use force (deadly or otherwise) as a last resort?

    No, I'm not taking the cop's side - I think his actions were highly questionable. Of course, we only know what others have reported.

    But any guy with a gun - especially in Massachusetts - has to conduct himself in a way that is beyond reproach, and not likely to reflect badly on him in court. Standing around after midnight, yelling at a bunch of drunks, while carrying a concealed firearm is just plain stupid.

    And yes, I still say he "screwed up."

    *
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
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  16. Nepats52

    Nepats52

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    Best take on what I've read so far...
     
  17. OB1Kenobi

    OB1Kenobi Banned

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    this is why a newport and a baseball bat go a long way.
     
  18. BOBKATT

    BOBKATT

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    Did it say that he put his pistol in his belt and then went outside and yelled at them? If not, why would you assume that he put it in his belt and then went out there and yelled at them? You wouldn't assume that he wasn't simply carrying as he always does, when the incident happened?

    You sound like a badass, and I ensure you that I believe you that your self-defense skills are legendary as well. But, this isn't an argument over strategy, my well trained friend. This is an argument over legality. And, it is not ilegal to confront someone verbally. So, I have to ask you to stay focused on the topic at hand. I don't care about whether your jedi training tells you that this is not the best way to tactically handle the situation. I only care, and it only matters, whether this is legal or not.

    And, I presume that it says so on your ccw badge, as well.

    Questionable? He physically assaulted and then arrested a man on the grounds that he somehow felt that the man was going to commit a crime. And now the man will likely have his life legally ruined. Questionable isn't the word for it.

    No, you're wrong again. A man has to abide by the law. He can act as stupid as he wants by your definition or by anyone else's definition. But, its a damn good thing that we don't simply let opinions of what is or what isn't stupid determine whether or not someone faces legal charges.

    Acting stupid does not necessarily mean breaking the law. And its a damn shame that some sympathizers, such as yourself, seem to lose their legal integrity when the victims do something that someone as tactically in tuned as yourself disagrees with.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
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  19. USMA-82

    USMA-82

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    BobKatt, your ignorance continues to baffle me, as does your lack of respect for law enforcement (or was "piggy" an affectionate term?) But in the end, you have the right to speak your peace. Don't expect me to further try your patience, though, because you're the newest member of my Ignore Club.

    PS: By the look of all the reputation points I'm racking up, you are fortunately in the minority in your rather warped views. Have a nice life and stay safe!

    *
     
  20. greencobra

    greencobra NES Member

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    Intoxicated in public for a start maybe. I think also it's bad form, in this state of all states, to be carrying while intoxicated and to get caught, jeezus! Move to Alabama bro.
     
  21. Martlet

    Martlet

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    Was he intoxicated?
     
  22. BOBKATT

    BOBKATT

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    You're right USMA, I don't have respect for law enforcement in this state. My take is that they're enforcing laws that take illegaly away my freedom so they can put food on their plate. I don't see how anyone could be a cop in MA and not feel that they're doing the wrong thing. We know these laws are unconstitutional and put good men and women in harms way. We know these laws make victims of good men. I can't for the life of me imagine enforcing them for a living. I can't think of anything more cowardly than that. I'm not here to argue that here in this thread so I will end it at that. But you can carry on if you like.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2011
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  23. Boghog1

    Boghog1

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    He must have been it was in the paper and I read it on the internet, plus the LEO said he smelled liquor
     
  24. greencobra

    greencobra NES Member

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    Well, after a second read it just said the smell of alcohol was strong coming from the person, but no, it didn't say that. Ooops, never assume!
     
  25. KilgoreTrout

    KilgoreTrout

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    Get drunk, look for trouble, find trouble. Problem solved.

    Sorry. Make choice, accept consequences.
     
  26. richc

    richc NES Member

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    Did I read in the article that one of the females in the group yelled that he had a gun? That is where I figured he was brandishing.


    ETA: "Drawing his own weapon, Mangan said, "I fully believed I was about to witness a man shoot the people he was arguing with directly in front of me." A woman then yelled, "He's got a gun!" Mangan then ordered Graziano to step away from the crowd and drop the gun. When he didn't do what he said, Mangan kicked Graziano in the stomach and told him to put his hands on the trunk of a parked car nearby. The officer said he smelled "a strong odor of alcohol emanating" from Graziano."
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  27. jbize1

    jbize1

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    +1 i agree with you, they always tell you avoid confortation at all cost, i read a book where this guy would check to find all the exits when he ate at a restaurant, if something went down, first thing he would do, is get out asap.

    look at this guy now, he is going to have to pay a lot of money with lawyers fee, not defending this cop, as the story sounds fishy to me, but i wouldnt have put myself in this situation
     
  28. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    Despite the traditional advice of "never speak without your mouthpiece once arrested", this is one situation where if you have not been drinking, it would be advisable to pull a Tim Murray and request a breathalyzer test - making sure that either the test, or the fact that you requested a test and the PD refused, is part of the record.

    The standard of proof for any gun related incident, particularly when it comes to "suitability" are very low, and it's going to be very hard for civilian scumbag to refute the word of a dedicated LE professional that he "smelled like alcohol".

    The chances of someone screaming "he's got a gun" are pretty slim if one goes by the mantra concealed means concealed. Proper attire would have prevented this from becoming any sort of incident.

    But, if he was indeed in a situation to "drop the gun", it may have gotten beyond that stage.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
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  29. jbize1

    jbize1

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    Solid info about asking for the Tim Murray, ill keep that in mind for any situation
     
  30. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    I wish you the best of luck in never needing that advice [smile]

    It actually might not be a bad idea at arrest for any "gun incident" under circumstances that could lead to an accusation of "under the influence" (Coming from a bar as the designated driver/gun-bearer; at 2AM near an area with a few bars; etc.), provided that your BAC is going to register zero.


    * - Note that MGL prohibits carry while "under the influence", not "intoxicate" - and, unlike DUI, does not provide any BAC cutoff to establish what "influence" is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011

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