Discussion about training

One of the trends I see that encourages me is to leave a gun alone(stock parts) until you're sure that it's the equipment that's keeping you from being a better shooter. The moral of the story is that you can't install good shooting to your gun, you have to learn it.

I used to do driving schools (where you take your car on race tracks) - I (and others) had the exact same philosophy, it's the driver that makes the car go faster, not modifications.
 
One of the trends I see that encourages me is to leave a gun alone(stock parts) until you're sure that it's the equipment that's keeping you from being a better shooter. The moral of the story is that you can't install good shooting to your gun, you have to learn it.

I learned my lesson on dicking with a gun that works fine a long time ago when I ruined my XD's trigger. Recently, I shot a fairly expensive, high round count class with a dude that fiddled with his Glock trigger. It made the gun almost bumpfire, and the trigger action was almost impossible to predict. After several beatings from the instructor, he admitting to being a dope for tinkering and I loaned him my back up (stock) Glock 17 for the rest of the class. I have tinker guns, but they are not guns I would grab if I needed one or was enrolled in a costly training class.
 
As an Open shooter, I'm pretty much on the front line of buying skill. Sometimes the right gear makes a big difference. It can make shooting easier, more consistent. Of course it can also make your shit not work. I got a box full of that stuff
 
As an Open shooter, I'm pretty much on the front line of buying skill. Sometimes the right gear makes a big difference. It can make shooting easier, more consistent. Of course it can also make your shit not work. I got a box full of that stuff

You're not buying skill though, you're buying tools to use your fundamental skills better. If you give your fastest open gun to someone who can't shoot for shit, they're not gonna be any better with yours than theirs.
 
I learned my lesson on dicking with a gun that works fine a long time ago when I ruined my XD's trigger. Recently, I shot a fairly expensive, high round count class with a dude that fiddled with his Glock trigger. It made the gun almost bumpfire, and the trigger action was almost impossible to predict. After several beatings from the instructor, he admitting to being a dope for tinkering and I loaned him my back up (stock) Glock 17 for the rest of the class. I have tinker guns, but they are not guns I would grab if I needed one or was enrolled in a costly training class.

i'll own it and admit that this was me. [laugh]

kept the springs, put the stock connector back in. gun behaves a lot better now and is nice and predictable.

just like an auto zone cold air intake won't make a civic an NSX, cheap and quick go-fast parts for your gun won't make you a better shooter. the above was my personal lesson in this.
 
As an Open shooter, I'm pretty much on the front line of buying skill. Sometimes the right gear makes a big difference. It can make shooting easier, more consistent. Of course it can also make your shit not work. I got a box full of that stuff

I thought you were a Limited guy. When did you go open?
 
As an Open shooter, I'm pretty much on the front line of buying skill. Sometimes the right gear makes a big difference. It can make shooting easier, more consistent. Of course it can also make your shit not work. I got a box full of that stuff
You are a pretty decent shooter - far better that me. That being said, Mark Mazotta will give you a run for your money in open if he brings up a beat old 45 with GI spec iron sights to the match.
 
I would like to stay away from the political side of things. Let's not discuss mandated training or legal requirements. I'm talking about the current mentality of gun owners and and approach to change that mentality from within the gun owner community.

Some people go to the range once a month, shoot at a piece of paper 7 yards away, get good hits, and think they are perfectly ready to grab the gun in the middle of the night off the night stand, take a position behind the bed and aim at the door, ready for whatever comes through it. Since training force on force with Simunition and laser video simulators, I know that situations are frequently more complicated and dynamic.

I see three categories of firearms owners
1) Gun owners who bought a gun for home/personal defense, don't carry, shoot maybe once or twice a year
2) Gun owners who shoot maybe once a month, might carry
3) Shooters, gun owners who shoot regularly and want to achieve a higher level of proficiency with their firearm, they may even seek out training.

As an instructor how do we get our message across to make people do voluntary training to each of those categories?
If you aren't a instructor, what category to you feel you fall into? What about you friends who are gun owners?
 
I thought you were a Limited guy. When did you go open?

I have always shot open, just play around with limited, which surprisingly I'm a better shooter with a iron sighted gun

You are a pretty decent shooter - far better that me. That being said, Mark Mazotta will give you a run for your money in open if he brings up a beat old 45 with GI spec iron sights to the match.

Mark is a phenomenal shooter, but the one thing I can beat him in is USPSA pistol. I don't think we have shot against each other in the same division since Area 7 2010 though
Now shotgun, especially clays, he will crush me. Rifle, he definitely gets me on accuracy, I get him on movement. .22 rifle with accuracy he hammers me.

I think Mark and Matt J are the two top all around shooters in the north east. Both can shoot everything extremely well. Jules M is the top action pistol shooter in the north east
 
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i'll own it and admit that this was me. [laugh]

kept the springs, put the stock connector back in. gun behaves a lot better now and is nice and predictable.

just like an auto zone cold air intake won't make a civic an NSX, cheap and quick go-fast parts for your gun won't make you a better shooter. the above was my personal lesson in this.
I heard reports that putting folgers can exhaust on a civic adds at least 100bhp at the crank. Those reports all came from tier 1 operators too [emoji1]
 
Shooting, whether it's target, defensive, action, etc is a perishable skill. It doesn't matter how good you are if you don't train/practice on a regular basis your skill will slowly deteriorate.
 
Some people go to the range once a month, shoot at a piece of paper 7 yards away, get good hits, and think they are perfectly ready to grab the gun in the middle of the night off the night stand, take a position behind the bed and aim at the door, ready for whatever comes through it. Since training force on force with Simunition and laser video simulators, I know that situations are frequently more complicated and dynamic.

I see three categories of firearms owners
1) Gun owners who bought a gun for home/personal defense, don't carry, shoot maybe once or twice a year
2) Gun owners who shoot maybe once a month, might carry
3) Shooters, gun owners who shoot regularly and want to achieve a higher level of proficiency with their firearm, they may even seek out training.

As an instructor how do we get our message across to make people do voluntary training to each of those categories?
If you aren't a instructor, what category to you feel you fall into? What about you friends who are gun owners?

I think force on force is important based on the reading I have done and talking to people who have trained with sim rounds, haven't gotten to try it yet but I hope to change that now that K33 is fairly local. That said I think there is a correct and incorrect way to do it. If training with Sim rounds for civilian application I think setup and realism are probably critical for getting the most out of it. I'm dying to do it because I have no real idea how I will react and perform when the cardboard is moving, shooting, and thinking at the same time I am.

Voluntary training is gaining popularity rapidly and has yet to reach its pinnacle, I think in the next few years it will continue to gain popularity. I run into a lot more "shooters" than I used to, social media/forums like this are helpful but also in everyday life. One way i think instructors can help push people to take it to the next level is by "gut checking" students from time to time. Let them know they can always get better, dont let people leave the range feeling like a gunfighter because they can stand on a static line and hit plates at 15 yards. Encouraging students for improvement/accomplishment is one thing, but dont build up their ego just because they did a pistol 1 class with you and managed not to take off their own foot. I'm a pretty self critical dude, I try to push myself to get better, Im never satisfied with my performance, I always ask myself why I couldn't do better. I think an instructor who reminds me that I can always do better instead of giving me a gold star for accomplishing something relatively unimpressive will help keep my ego in check and push me to strive for the next level.

Another thing, the basic level guys teaching license classes out of their basement need to hammer new shooters on the importance of getting training and regular practice. Too many of these dudes are telling people how awesome they are after hitting a bullseye on their qualification shoot with a 22 revolver and sending them out into the world thinking they can protect themselves.
 
One of the things that frustrated me intitially when I started getting really focused on defensive shooting was the fact that no one was 'teaching' me how to shoot better, and faster. It made no sense to me that I could run around a building or jump out of a car, and then intimidate my opponent with a shitty slow fired group.

I sought out people that could shoot, picked their brains, read books, watched videos, and then tested it all out on my own. I always tell people that I'm not self taught, I'm self trained. As instructors, our job should be to help people dramatically shorten that process, and like Snacks said... advise clients when they need to take a step back from the level of training they think they need.
 
One of the things that frustrated me intitially when I started getting really focused on defensive shooting was the fact that no one was 'teaching' me how to shoot better, and faster. It made no sense to me that I could run around a building or jump out of a car, and then intimidate my opponent with a shitty slow fired group.

I sought out people that could shoot, picked their brains, read books, watched videos, and then tested it all out on my own. I always tell people that I'm not self taught, I'm self trained. As instructors, our job should be to help people dramatically shorten that process, and like Snacks said... advise clients when they need to take a step back from the level of training they think they need.

Agree 100℅. This is where the fine line between enhancing skill and playing tactical fantasy band camp is drawn. Both are "important" depending on the potential application of skill the student may actually need to possess in the real world, but you can't have one without the other. Running around a building or jumping from a vehicle while missing all your shots? You might as well go do a crossfit WOD bro.

I see this with people training dogs a lot, the dog is doing well on leash, but isn't quite ready for an off leash command. Too often people jump too quickly into the next step and try off leash commands which are disobeyed without any method of control or correction, it actually ends up being counterproductive as it reinforces or regenerates bad habit, and confuses the shit out of the student. Shooters are no different and I have personally suffered from it in the past.
 
After Sig's rifle 101 class, I couldn't make a good group to save my life, but I felt like i was off to a good start being able to load, clear the rifle etc safely. Sig seems to focus on developing safe muscle memory first, which seemed like a good thing for noobs.

i wish there were more classes close to me, everything seems to be an hour and a half drive through rush-hour traffic (Foxboro, , that's mainly why I choose Sig (no traffic that direction).
 

That article is just moronic. He starts off with an assertion that is factually wrong, and is so plainly clear that it is wrong that it is evident he didn't bother to let facts get in the way of his opinion. He writes "all targets are single shot targets." No, actually they're not.

I've taken a number of defensive shooting classes. They were great. But taking a class and shooting a few hundred rounds during the class doesn't make you a skilled shooter. It may help you learn how to train. But unless you actually train and do so in way where you can objectively measure your progress, then you aren't going to get very far.
 
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With regard to training, do you track your training and improvement? A lot of us have agreed that classes and instruction are not meant to be the end of your training, and that we should take those skills and continue to hone them on our own. I do that, but i don't track it. I see a couple guys really push the training journal as a means to know if your work is paying off, or if it's mental masturbation.

I know I'm a better shooter than when I left the last class I took, meaning I've improved on my , own, but the gains that I may or may not see now are starting to become smaller as I tune my pistol skills, so I want to try to put a training journal together to track the drills and things I do the most.
 
With regard to training, do you track your training and improvement? A lot of us have agreed that classes and instruction are not meant to be the end of your training, and that we should take those skills and continue to hone them on our own. I do that, but i don't track it. I see a couple guys really push the training journal as a means to know if your work is paying off, or if it's mental masturbation.

I know I'm a better shooter than when I left the last class I took, meaning I've improved on my , own, but the gains that I may or may not see now are starting to become smaller as I tune my pistol skills, so I want to try to put a training journal together to track the drills and things I do the most.

I think you can train and learn on your own. Training or practice journals aren't a bad idea. How much you get out of them depends on how diligent and thorough you are in putting information into them.

One of the the values of taking a class is it shows you how to train and practice. Periodically taking a class will allow some else to give constructive critiques or introduce you to new techniques. Practice doesn't make perfect if the practice is imperfect.

I have had students who took notes in class, went home and practiced. One particular student did almost all dry fire practice. He came back for our Pistol 2 class several months later and there was substantial improvement in his skill. Also his attitude was even more positive. He was more confident, but also more eager to learn because he saw the improvements himself.
 
With regard to training, do you track your training and improvement? A lot of us have agreed that classes and instruction are not meant to be the end of your training, and that we should take those skills and continue to hone them on our own. I do that, but i don't track it. I see a couple guys really push the training journal as a means to know if your work is paying off, or if it's mental masturbation.

I know I'm a better shooter than when I left the last class I took, meaning I've improved on my , own, but the gains that I may or may not see now are starting to become smaller as I tune my pistol skills, so I want to try to put a training journal together to track the drills and things I do the most.

I track times on basic skill sets (reloads, transitions, average splits at various ranges) and standard drills (El Pres, 1 and 1 drill), and keep notes on them. I only log a time if it's a clean run (meaning A zone hits)... otherwise you're just tracking your failures. You're better off investing in a 3rd person video setup. Run drills at normal speed and record at normal speed. Run the drills at warp speed to the point the wheels fall off, and record that in slow motion. You'll learn a ton.
 
As a kid in Moscow no one in my family was into shooting. My grandfather hunted for many years but quit around the time I was born; he and my uncle both had gas pistols (can't legally have a real gun in Russia) that they never carried; but I spent my childhood playing with bb guns that were considered just toys and you could even take them to school with you. Once in the US in my early teens I thought guns were cool but I didn't know anyone that had any so it wasn't until a college friend graduated and got an LTC that I actually got out to the range and had a ton of fun. Still, it took a couple of years for me to get around to applying for a license, which I got from Boston just over two years ago (I actually applied two weeks before Sandy Hook... great f-ing timing). Back then, about three years ago, background checks and AWBs seemed perfectly reasonable at face value. However, once I put in for my LTC, I started reading and the snowball built up very quickly. Before long I was spending my lunch breaks and evenings reading about world history, US history, the revolution, the founding fathers, the constitution, firearms laws past and present, WWII history, crime statistics, different firearms, training techniques, etc etc. Anything gun related became my passion and as I learned more, my interest only grew and this continues to this day.

About a year ago I realized that standing at a range bench on a nice sunny afternoon and carefully aiming at paper or bottles/cans would never prepare me for any sort of defensive scenario and it wouldn't make me a better shooter. This became blatantly obvious when I showed up to a 3 gun match and missed half the targets. After that, about 8 months ago, I met with Stu (Cloverleaf), who showed me that what I thought were at least decent fundamentals were actually junk and I'd been practicing the wrong things. Over the course of two hours my shooting improved and since then I've been working at really solidifying those fundamental skills. I also got into IDPA this year and, once again, saw how far behind everyone I really am. This has done nothing but further spur me to improve and really TRAIN instead of just shooting. I dry fire several times a week and I try to get out to the range nearly every weekend. I'm getting better but I'm not at the point where I want to seek out more training yet - I need to reach certain goals first.

I've also taken a couple of no-fire classes at MFS to start working on my mental capabilities. For now I'm working on fundamentals (especially trigger control), as well as some holster work, reloads, and malfunctions (the things I encounter at IDPA). I've resisted the temptation to modify my go-to pistol in any way.

As for other types of firearms, I shoot a lot of skeet and generally considered myself to be beginner-proficient with a shotgun (came in 3rd at the shotgun stage at the aforementioned 3 gun match). I do want to get into shotgunning more seriously and start training with it though. Rifles are on hold really until I become better at everything else, particularly pistol, and until I move out of Boston.

Stu - at some point I do want to get your take on my improvements, if any, since we met. Like I said though, I have certain goals to reach before coming back for more training/instruction.
 
With regard to training, do you track your training and improvement?

Join USPSA. Shoot matches as often as you can. Each match will have a classifier stage. If you are practicing properly, your scores will improve, they can be tracked on the USPSA website
 
Join USPSA. Shoot matches as often as you can. Each match will have a classifier stage. If you are practicing properly, your scores will improve, they can be tracked on the USPSA website

So much of doing well in uspsa has nothing to do with actual shooting. People could move up in the ranks quickly by learning to move well and never actually learning to shoot well. Plus the classifier system is a mess, you can shoot 2 classifiers testing the same skill and same difficulty and they will have vastly different HHF

Plus people generally get better at any skill that they practice, even if it is done incorrectly, so improvement doesn't mean you are doing the skill correctly
 
Join USPSA. Shoot matches as often as you can. Each match will have a classifier stage. If you are practicing properly, your scores will improve, they can be tracked on the USPSA website

Unfortunately, there are no gun games local to me, in addition to the fact that I work most weekends. I would love to shoot IDPA or USPSA, but most matches even remotely close are in Mass, and that's not gonna happen.
 
Unfortunately, there are no gun games local to me, in addition to the fact that I work most weekends. I would love to shoot IDPA or USPSA, but most matches even remotely close are in Mass, and that's not gonna happen.
Lots of people from outside MA come to our competitions. We have a huge contingent from NH and a few regulars from CT. Our bigger matches, like the New England regional, draws from further away than that.

That said, you don't need to go to a match to train. You will get more training done in an hour at the range with a shot timer than you will at a match. What you get at a match are different scenarios, targets that you don't have (like steel and movers) and, most importantly, pressure.
 
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