Discussion about training

[chrisz@K33T]

I'd like to start a discussion about training. I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts and habits. As a firearms owner, if personal protection is high on your list for reasons to own a gun, do you go to the range regularly to practice? How often? What about formal instruction or training? Other than a basic NRA safety or similar course, have you taken and formal training class? Do you believe that your own practice, planning and developing a mindset is adequate?

A little about myself.
I've been shooting since I was 13. I started in a formal rifle marksmanship program. I trained under some great coaches and instructors, several fellow shooters in my program went on to be national champions. After college I picked up pistol shooting and got into action competitions. I tried to learn as much as I could from the better shooters around me. I practiced every weekend. I considered myself a shooter, but at a point asked myself if I could handle a real self-defense situation. I began to change my practice and sought out some other instruction. A little over a year ago I left my corporate world job to join King 33. I wanted to better myself, keep learning and to pay it forward to others.

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on practice vs training, gun owners vs shooters, and more.

I welcome everyone's reply.
Chris Z

 

[AllaSnackbah]

Good topic Chris. I'm interested to hear some replies to this and maybe give my own (worthless) opinion later when I can sit down and type.

 

[Varmint]

I just got my LTC a year ago. Predictably, I started out wanting to buy this and that, but now that that’s out of my system, I’m focusing on training.

With almost no rifle experience, I took Sig’s Rifle 101 class, and am signed up for 102. I’m so busy with family that I don’t have much free time, so doing as much as my schedule and wife will allow. Will get some handgun training as well, when time permits.

I think guns without training is like a big fancy kitchen when you don’t know how to cook. Not only that, I’d rather spend my money on experiences than things, you get much better return on investment that way.

 

[PATRON]

I have seen threw the years that some people will own,and carry a gun with little to no training.So I have made it a rule that I will not teach any firearm course that does not incorporate live fire.I will go out on the limb as to say that any Instructor who teaches a course for FID, OR LTC, and does not incorporate live fire is irresponsible.It's just like a driving instructor teaching someone the rules of the road but not teaching them how to drive a car.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

I have seen threw the years that some people will own,and carry a gun with little to no training.So I have made it a rule that I will not teach any firearm course that does not incorporate live fire.I will go out on the limb as to say that any Instructor who teaches a course for FID, OR LTC, and does not incorporate live fire is irresponsible.It's just like a driving instructor teaching someone the rules of the road but not teaching them how to drive a car.

I hope this thread doesn't go down the road of MA required training nonsense...

I shot a gun for the first time in boot camp when I was 19, my parents were not the gun type and it wasn't something I wasn't too terribly interested in prior to that. I bought my first gun while in the Navy when I moved off the ship and into my own apartment and started shooting on my own time. When I moved home and started getting more active on this forum I began showing up at IDPA/USPSA matches because I had no friends in the community, the folks in the competition circuit are great and have some good friends I met there. After a few years I met a few good dudes interested in training and started going to the range and running some drills with them. I attended my first professional instructed class last year, and I am registered at Sig for 8 days of training this summer (they accept GI Bill as payment), and I am hoping to take an other class this fall. In between all of the professional instruction this year, I am planning to hit a few action matches as well as meet up with my crew of friends to do some less structured group training.

 

[PATRON]

MA firearm training nonsense?

 

[M1911]

MA firearm training nonsense?

The fact that MA requires training in order to get an LTC or FID is nonsense, IMO. I'm an NRA certified instructor. And I strongly disagree with any state mandate that requires training. I also think that people should get training. I don't see that as any contradiction.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

The fact that MA requires training in order to get an LTC or FID is nonsense, IMO. I'm an NRA certified instructor. And I strongly disagree with any state mandate that requires training. I also think that people should get training. I don't see that as any contradiction.

This is what I was getting at. I also think people should seek out training on their own accord, just not because of a .gov mandated cash cow.

 

[Admin]

MA firearm training nonsense?

Do you think firearms training should be a requirement to owning firearms?

 

[mark056]

While I believe that firearms ownership is a constitutional right, I believe that the ethical firearms owner owes it to himself/herself to get training. In an America that was more rural, training was informal and passed down in the family by family members. Today that is not so much so. I first learned to shoot a .22 from my father. Later in Boy Scout Camp, then in the military. By that time I had gotten into firearms ownership. Over the years I read everything I could from many different sources on practical combat type handgun shooting: Cooper, Jordan, Ayoob, Nonte, Taylor, Smith...and others. Later I took courses at S&W Academy and Sig Sauer Academy and try to take at least one class per year. I feel that training and practice go hand in hand. I don't go to the range as often as I should but I do practice drawing and dry firing on a regular basis, but nothing is a substitute for time on the range. Just don't practice your mistakes.

I would never make training mandatory for licensure or ownership (in my world only constitutional carry...period) but anyone who does not train is only fooling themselves in the long run, and having a gun and not knowing how to use it properly is really worse than having no gun at all IMO.

 

[jibbr71]

I think people should have training, I DON'T think that the state or anyone else should mandate that training as a condition to exercise your right to carry a firearm, no matter how much you have to beg to do so.

Back to the OP's intent:

I've been shooting rifles (poorly) since I was 12 years old, mostly deer/coyote/groundhog hunting, some squirrells thrown in for good measure. I've had a couple of handguns over the years, but never carried one until about 3 years ago. I carried for a while without shooting a lot, and in the meantime starting lurking around this place a bunch. I was persuaded by a lot of good people indirectly to start shooting more and get serious about my "carry system". Last summer, I took my first real instruction in the use of defensive firearms with Seth @ On Target Firearm Training (REVIEW HERE). I learned a huge amount from that class and a subsequent refresher clinic in November. What I really took away was the things I could work on after the training to keep skills good and even better them.

I now work my own drills a lot, probably shooting 200-300 rounds a week on average, with an hour or two of dry fire/reload practice. We don't have a lot of gun games up in my neck of the woods, but I shoot in my club's "Action Shooter Group", which runs each shooter through a scenario, then debrief on their handling of it, followed by some drills to work on draw, transitions, etc. I'm really lacking in carbine skills, which I plan to work on this summer, but you can't do it all at once. I've got a couple friends I shoot with, but not many who take it very seriously(they generally want to shoot to make noise, or look cool), so most of my work is on my own. That being said, I've got a couple new friends who do take this seriously, and we'll be shooting together, hopefully A LOT.

 

[Salyeica]

For those who are stauch proponents of the 2A, do you believe that there should never be a prohibited person? Felons, those with diminished mental capacities, etc. Can and should own firearms? I believe in the fundamental tenets of the 2A, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that people committing some of the crimes I read about are "simply exercising their fundamental right to own firearms."

 

[ChevyGuy91]

For those who are stauch proponents of the 2A, do you believe that there should never be a prohibited person? Felons, those with diminished mental capacities, etc. Can and should own firearms? I believe in the fundamental tenets of the 2A, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that people committing some of the crimes I read about are "simply exercising their fundamental right to own firearms."

Wrong thread for that topic, Bud.

 

[PATRON]

Do you think firearms training should be a requirement to owning firearms?

YES I DO! But I do believe that everyone after they have that training should be able to own,and carry that firearm with no restrictions.I know that some people are going to say,well it's a right,and I should be able to say if I should get training or not.Well it's not when you go out on the street with a gun, and no clue on how to use it. You put my life,and my families life in danger.

 

[Boris]

#tier1operatorsunion

 

[Point37]

The fact that MA requires training in order to get an LTC or FID is nonsense, IMO. And I strongly disagree with any state mandate that requires training. I also think that people should get training. I don't see that as any contradiction.

^^^i agree with this...i learned to shoot a when i was younger in scout camp and afterwards hadn't shot again until last year when i decided to get my license...the basic safety course for licensing is what it is, basic...and that is fine cause it's your right to own firearms, you shouldn't have to qualify or go to lengthy classes...after that range time and instructed classes will only help more...myself, i barely have time to get to the range very often with everything i have going on so i don't see myself going to training classes cause if i'm not going to be able to consistently go to classes or practice the techniques from the classes and then you forget/lose it so what good was the training...and to go to defensive classes when most of the time i can't carry due to working in a different state than i live and training/practicing for a situation that may arise for a very small fraction of the population doesn't seem like an effective use of my time or money...i don't consider my myself a shooter cause i don't compete or take classes or anything, i just consider myself an owner that will carry and go to the range from time to time and wants to have firearms for protection...but that's just my situation/opinion

 

[Salyeica]

Wrong thread for that topic, Bud.

Fair enough. Was not intending to derail.

 

[ChevyGuy91]

Do you think firearms training should be a requirement to owning firearms?

YES I DO! But I do believe that everyone after they have that training should be able to own,and carry that firearm with no restrictions.I know that some people are going to say,well it's a right,and I should be able to say if I should get training or not.Well it's not when you go out on the street with a gun, and no clue on how to use it. You put my life,and my families life in danger.

annnnd we're off.

Sorry OP.

 

[Varmint]

For those who are stauch proponents of the 2A, do you believe that there should never be a prohibited person? Felons, those with diminished mental capacities, etc. Can and should own firearms? I believe in the fundamental tenets of the 2A, but I can't wrap my head around the idea that people committing some of the crimes I read about are "simply exercising their fundamental right to own firearms."

Felons should be in jail. If we let them out, aren’t we saying they can rejoin society? If so, why take away their rights?

This country spends way too much time trying to control law-abiding citizens when it should be going after criminals.

 

[jibbr71]

YES I DO! But I do believe that everyone after they have that training should be able to own,and carry that firearm with no restrictions.I know that some people are going to say,well it's a right,and I should be able to say if I should get training or not.Well it's not when you go out on the street with a gun, and no clue on how to use it. You put my life,and my families life in danger.

annnnd we're off.

Sorry OP.

For the love of god.....I like the intent of this thread, especially if we can get some more activity in the training video thread. Please don't take it to lock-land.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

Please don't turn this thread into nonsense, I was going to post some relevant content when I got home.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

TLDR:

But

Here is my worthless story/opinion in regards to the OP:

Ive been hunting and shooting since as far back as i can remember, my father is into hunting and I spent many hours freezing my ass off in deer stands before i was even old enough to legally hunt. I think i had my first .22 before i turned 12. My parents supervised me until i demonstrated proficiency/respect and then i was pretty much free to roam on the family farm. I grew into a shooter taking potshots at whatever needed destroying with friends for many of my years up through high school. I was always into "tactical" shooting, from the one pump rule BB gun war days in the dairy barn all the way up until i bought my first AR15 around age 20. I spent a few years in the shoot guns to make noise/look cool stage (although i still look pretty cool to this day, but thats a different story ). Once i turned 21 got my handgun license, and steadily got more and more interested in shooting for skill, then the last 3-4 years i went completely full retard, its pretty much consumed me. I train weekly, probably averaging around 2-500 rounds per week, and IMO this is huge guys, train myself mentally through absorbing as much literature, media, and useless internet opinion as i can on the psychology/mindset/skill of combat/killing/not being a victim, etc. I have competed, terribly, in several IDPA/3 gun type shoots, and took my first professionally instructed classes last year, CFG, and Dave Harrington, and have taken several other small courses and demos including the Trijicon RMR demo I attended with Frank Martello and the OP, Chris at K33 this year. I look forward to doing more training this year if i can ever stop wasting my money on tactical trinkets, and developing myself into a well rounded proficient shooter. Who knows what the future holds, but i am dead set on a path to make my obsession with shooting/training into a way of life.

I think if you carry a gun for self defense and dont seek to train and be proficient with it you are quite literally fooling yourself, sure there are instances of people with little or no training getting lucky and coming out on top in a life or death situation, but like i said, i think they are the lucky ones. I know several people, some very close to me, who act as though a concealed handgun is some kind of magical talisman that will ward away evil and if necessary, quite literally stop it dead in its tracks. Research shows that this is simply not the case, as evidenced by the countless accounts of "trained" police officers freezing up when it is time to take it to 11 and being murdered by motivated assailants, and people taking multiple hits from pistol rounds and surviving on to win the fight.

I find it absolutely laughable that anyone would approve of govt mandating classes to demonstrate proficiency. This is going to sound deep, especially coming from me, but i truly believe that self defense is a right endowed upon us by our creator, government and those supportive of government restriction on that right can quite honestly get ****ed IMHO. That said, I do subscribe to the general consensus in this thread that if you carry a deadly weapon without seeking training not only in shooting itself, but rendering first aide, hand to hand self defense technique, and the legal ins and outs of carrying a weapon, you are being irresponsible. May you live through the first time you need to use your tool in self defense to seek training the very next day.

 

[Cabin Fever]

Please don't turn this thread into nonsense, I was going to post some relevant content when I got home.

^^ this

I'm pressed for time, but I have found even 5-10 minutes of semi regular dry fire practice to pay huge dividends.

And the occasional professional instruction is great too.

 

[M1911]

I'd like to start a discussion about training. I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts and habits. As a firearms owner, if personal protection is high on your list for reasons to own a gun, do you go to the range regularly to practice? How often? What about formal instruction or training? Other than a basic NRA safety or similar course, have you taken and formal training class? Do you believe that your own practice, planning and developing a mindset is adequate?

I don't go to the range as often as I would like. I would prefer to go several times a month, but I don't often manage that. I've had over 250 hours of training, from a number of instructors including Mas Ayoob, Randy Cain, SIG Academy, S&W Academy, and most recently Ben Stoeger and Mike Seeklander. I also compete regularly in IDPA and irregularly in USPSA. I highly recommend competition. It gives you an objective measure of how well your gear and technique works under pressure.

The main hole in my training is force on force, more extensive low-light work, and carbine.

 

[atilla]

TLDR:

This. Training should be sought out, not mandated. Period.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

Great topic Chris. Sam has told me good things about you guys. I'll make it down at some point.

personal protection is pretty much at the top of my list, and has been from day one. in my personal life, and my training philosophy as an instructor. I'll try to take the questions in order.

I train every day, whether it's with dry fire, a laser training pistol, or airsoft. I just get reps on basics and work on things that don't require a live shot or recoil to learn. I'm at the range one to two times per week validating things that I've learned through dry fire with live fire. I've been a full-time police officer for 8 years now 6 of that in Firearms instruction, both at the department, Academy, and train the trainer level. I've taken a whole bunch of courses from a whole bunch of people, but none of that matters to me unless I can validate it through competition or some other means. I feel pretty solid about my training plan and my mind set at this point. I'm happy, but never satisfied.

I like where training culture is going at this point, and I try to keep my courses in context of the life that people live. I want training to be relevant. The only thing that bothers me lately, is the idea of self defense based instructors crapping on people who don't train like they do. I think the mark of a good instructor is to meet people where they are at in life, give them what they need at that time, and motivate them to continue to push forward and grow.

disclaimer: this whole post s Voice transcribed, cut me some slack on spelling haha and grammar errors

 

[Supermoto]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on practice vs training, gun owners vs shooters, and more.

Practice without proper training is not practice, its just a waste of ammo. And unfocused practice is pretty useless too.

I used to shoot a lot. 30K a year, matches every weekend. Now I haven't shot a real match in 8 months and only practice to not lose what I worked hard to achieve and help my buddies get better

I'm going to disagree with Cloverleaf, I don't like were the training world is. Too many trainers, not enough shooting skill. I see a lot of highly rated self defense/tactical (ugh) teachers that can't shoot, but it is the only skill I can critique since I know nothing about tactics. So does it matter in the self defense world? Is it even noticed?

 

[jibbr71]

Practice without proper training is not practice, its just a waste of ammo. And unfocused practice is pretty useless too.

This, and if someone takes nothing else away from this thread, make this^^^ that one thing.

I'm going to disagree with Cloverleaf, I don't like were the training world is. Too many trainers, not enough shooting skill. I see a lot of highly rated self defense/tactical (ugh) teachers that can't shoot, but it is the only skill I can critique since I know nothing about tactics. So does it matter in the self defense world? Is it even noticed?

While I'm not gonna disagree with Cloverleaf, I'm going to agree with you.
I feel like there is a lot of terrible training out there, too worried about tactics and the latest gear when the instructors can't keep 10 shots out of their favorite pistol on paper plate at 20 yards. On the other hand, the webernets has brought us a slew of "small time" instructors, grounded in the fundamentals of shooting and building on that toward tactics and what not. One of the trends I see that encourages me is to leave a gun alone(stock parts) until you're sure that it's the equipment that's keeping you from being a better shooter. The moral of the story is that you can't install good shooting to your gun, you have to learn it.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

Practice without proper training is not practice, its just a waste of ammo. And unfocused practice is pretty useless too.

I used to shoot a lot. 30K a year, matches every weekend. Now I haven't shot a real match in 8 months and only practice to not lose what I worked hard to achieve and help my buddies get better

I'm going to disagree with Cloverleaf, I don't like were the training world is. Too many trainers, not enough shooting skill. I see a lot of highly rated self defense/tactical (ugh) teachers that can't shoot, but it is the only skill I can critique since I know nothing about tactics. So does it matter in the self defense world? Is it even noticed?

Think we actually agree more than you think, I just wasn't clear because i was giving my son a bath while trying to string thoughts together. What I meant was that I see more people seeking out training and being interested in learningmore vs. buying more stuff. I agree there are some REAL shitty instructors out there who put the tactical cart before the fundamental horse.

 

[VetteGirlMA]

I have a nice simple philosophy regarding how I view my gun ownership. When I was going for my license and decided on an LTC I knew I would want a hand gun and that the hand gun would be primarily for self defense. Anything else would be for target shooting. Yes I have spent some extra money taking some of the concealed carry classes at Mass Firearms school, but it shouldn't be a requirement of gun ownership, it's something I "chose" to do.

The way I view my situation is simple. If I want to carry on one day I do, if I don't I keep my hand gun locked up. I like being able to have that choice and decide what I feel like taking with me. The only thing that's stopping me from carrying more often right now is not having the right holster because of light summer clothing. Concealed carry for women is more complicated because of the kinds of clothing we wear. Now that I have a hand gun and can practice more, I understand the importance of having the right holster and am not in a rush to go out and buy 10 of them to end up sitting in a closet unused. I credit this to the training I have received specifically from mass firearms schools concealed carry program.

Now I am a gun owner and have my entire life to invest in my own training or whatever guns I want to carry at my own speed and based on my own needs. None of that is mandated it's just how I view my gun ownership. I want to be responsible but only because "I said so" and that applies to me only. How anyone else wants to handle their affairs is up to them. If they are irresponsible and end up on the wrong side of the law it won't be from anything I have done.