icanthitit
NES Member
In retrospect, I wouldn’t take a “first time purchase” firearm without a proceed. It was stressful and a timesuck even if it all came out in my favor in the end.
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Denied on NICS Check-Am I allowed to purchase gun E-FA-10
- Thread starter icanthitit
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- Apr 24, 2005
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Try not selling based on race and see how far that gets you.
So this was your first purchase? Ok that makes a little more sense. I always get delayed (probably due to some college debauchery on my record) - I’m going to try and get a upin asap. Congrats on getting it sorted.
namedpipes
NES Member
ATF will instruct fledgling FFL's that they SHOULD decline the transfer if the FFL senses anything at all is wrong. Stating "Get out, black man!" might be an issue but we needn't contemplate the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, okay?
icanthitit
NES Member
I got my UPIN far more quickly than I expected (4 weeks).
I made sure all of my paperwork looked professional, I provided all information AND sent it in a giant Manila envelop via certified mail. Not sure if all these sped it up, but looking professional never hurt any applicant in any application process.
Some totally decent small FFLs who have been burned, especially publicly, will at a minimum pick and choose who to default proceed to. Basically bad luck and now they are supposed to go try to see the gun returned, guy potentially wants a full refund for what may now be a used gun, or if cops or ATF get involved may hit the paper - we don't care but the townsfolk might.
Myself a delay pisses me off and that's what I see as a problem - once I leave the shop and am waiting anyway I don't care if it's 2 days or 2 weeks I gotta wait. I get how a newbie would freak out over waiting past the 3 days for their new M&P, but for everyone else to me seems silly to freak out over that.
With a few safes full I'd rather just wait it out to be on the safe side, at least for awhile - if they make some mistake and I get denied, I'd rather sort it out eloquently without the risk of LE showing up at my place and taking everything I've got. Just me, paranoid type probably.
namedpipes
NES Member
I'm willing to bet they've received applications written in crayon, but yeah. I too, try to make business communications appear as pro as possible.
AHM
NES Member
^ Bookmarking this one under "funnier without the comma".I’ve spoken to their agents before they were helpful.
Holding out for a world where:
- Comm2A trolls Red towns with a bolus of Black LTC applicants.
- ???
- Profit!
Lol not sure if serious, if a shop follows the procedures outlined earlier in this thread, the "used gun" is then no longer their f***ing problem. A post-delay-denial is the buyer's and the authorities' problem. He can "want a full refund" all he wants, but he ain't getting it.
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
Lol, and most post-delay denials don't result in this happening. Most of the time the followup actions from these things are tremendously
boring. If it really was a f***up on the part of the system (where a real PP got through) the ATF and/or Kopsch go to the location on the 4473 and seize the
gun or at least interview the buyer if they think it might be a false/stolen identity deal, etc. Many of these false denials might not even get anything more than a phone call? or a letter from the feds. (not sure how this works, mechanically, when the ATF knows its likely a false but does nothing afterwards). Probably varies dramatically if the person got the gun or not. (which the feds would know, regardless. )
IMHO anyone that always goes into a default proceed should at least be looking into their own background, or getting a UPIN, etc. It may or may not help but theres also a possibility something stupid is afoot with their records. Damage from things like identity theft is more limited if it gets stopped faster.
Lol not sure if serious, if a shop follows the procedures outlined earlier in this thread, the "used gun" is then no longer their f***ing problem. A post-delay-denial is the buyer's and the authorities' problem. He can "want a full refund" all he wants, but he ain't getting it.
Lol, and most post-delay denials don't result in this happening. Most of the time the followup actions from these things are tremendously
boring. If it really was a f***up on the part of the system (where a real PP got through) the ATF and/or Kopsch go to the location on the 4473 and seize the
gun or at least interview the buyer if they think it might be a false/stolen identity deal, etc. Many of these false denials might not even get anything more than a phone call? or a letter from the feds. (not sure how this works, mechanically, when the ATF knows its likely a false but does nothing afterwards). Probably varies dramatically if the person got the gun or not. (which the feds would know, regardless. )
IMHO anyone that always goes into a default proceed should at least be looking into their own background, or getting a UPIN, etc. It may or may not help but theres also a possibility something stupid is afoot with their records. Damage from things like identity theft is more limited if it gets stopped faster.
I agree with most of that but still, that is why an FFL decides not to default proceed. Mostly it's probably they don't want their name to be in the paper (possibly again) because someone got arrested over it, absolutely not their problem legally but business owners get sensitive to that sorta stuff.
As far as the issue of $$ - some significant number (and who knows how many really) of the denials aren't PPs. We all probably know this, a guy who knows they are a PP usually isn't stupid enough to try and buy a gun this way (usually
)..I know a guy who was the brother of a PP and got a denial as a result of mix up, other times dumbass mistakes are made, ie know another who had his NFA item granted followed by a denial for a rifle over a basic free state sort of DUI (ie a completely straightforward < 1 year petty crime). An FFL probably does feel compelled to take the stock back knowing there's a good chance this person may be back making more purchases, or at least not bad mouthing them to the gun owning community.
Lol, none of this matters, this literally doesn't happen, unless there's a bunch of corpses related to the gun purchase, at the same time, somehow. Stop making shit up that doesn't exist, for the love of god.
Denials get guns taken from them by the feds all the time and it rarely ends up being newsworthy. Hell the ATF doesnt even arrest most of these people absent some other issue or a pile of felonies they can get on them. Even if someone was arrested, it's unlikely to be noticed unless there are corpses involved.
Yes, a few do as a risk aversion strategy WRT civil suits, etc. That's literally it, the entire reason is because of perceived civil liability. It's cheaper for (box store here) to lose
the sale or even the whole customer than it is to deal with the problem if the 1 in 10,000 odds hits true and they get sued somehow for it. The idea being that if they got sued, even if
it was dismissed out of the gate, is going to cost htem shitloads of money. With the small margins sin the business, It's cheaper for them to fire like a dozen customers than it is to pay for an attorney's retainer for that incident. Especially for a box store which, at any random moment can fire a dozen or two customers and nobody cares.
There's also a few minor, circuitous, workflow based, paperwork violation traps that can come up in an ATF audit, that are avoided by dealers by not doing default proceeds, but this is the height of laziness, frankly. I'm not even going to go there because its dumb.
As far as the issue of $$ - some significant number (and who knows how many really) of the denials aren't PPs. We all probably know this, a guy who knows they are a PP usually isn't stupid enough to try and buy a gun this way (usually
Lol no FFL I know of that likes staying in business will give full $ back on a used gun. MAYBE if it was genuinely unused, with ZERO signs of firing, etc. Or MAYBE if the customer
in question is normally otherwise a big spender in the shop. Of course you're going to cut that guy a break, because he's churning revenue when hes around.
However, it still remains that.... not proceeding by default on the small odds it turns into a deny, because "it might produce this scenario of a customer being dissatisfied about a refund" is straight up mental retardation grade logic.
That's going further into "angels dancing on the head of a pin" territory.
CrackPot
NES Member
Good outcome for you. If you do the UPIN application online and upload a picture of the finger prints, people are averaging SEVEN DAYS to get their UPIN. Glad the old fashioned way did not take the rest of your natural born life.
I really really don't believe that the ATF would ask the FFL to be involved in recovery. I will ask the ATF next time they stop by the shop to visit if they would ever do something like this. You have me curious.
CrackPot
NES Member
I love all the insane conjecture from the non-FFLs in this thread. At least it provides humor from their complete and total ignorance.Lol, none of this matters, this literally doesn't happen, unless there's a bunch of corpses related to the gun purchase, at the same time, somehow. Stop making shit up that doesn't exist, for the love of god.
people absent some other issue or a pile of felonies they can get on them. Even if someone was arrested, it's unlikely to be noticed unless there are corpses involved.
Yes, a few do as a risk aversion strategy WRT civil suits, etc. That's literally it, the entire reason is because of perceived civil liability. It's cheaper for (box store here) to lose
the sale or even the whole customer than it is to deal with the problem if the 1 in 10,000 odds hits true and they get sued somehow for it. The idea being that if they got sued, even if
it was dismissed out of the gate, is going to cost htem shitloads of money. With the small margins sin the business, It's cheaper for them to fire like a dozen customers than it is to pay for an attorney's retainer for that incident. Especially for a box store which, at any random moment can fire a dozen or two customers and nobody cares.
There's also a few minor, circuitous, workflow based, paperwork violation traps that can come up in an ATF audit, that are avoided by dealers by not doing default proceeds, but this is the height of laziness, frankly. I'm not even going to go there because its dumb.
Lol no FFL I know of that likes staying in business will give full $ back on a used gun. MAYBE if it was genuinely unused, with ZERO signs of firing, etc. Or MAYBE if the customer
in question is normally otherwise a big spender in the shop. Of course you're going to cut that guy a break, because he's churning revenue when hes around.
However, it still remains that.... not proceeding by default on the small odds it turns into a deny, because "it might produce this scenario of a customer being dissatisfied about a refund" is straight up mental retardation grade logic.
I just go by what I have been told by an FFL, and it makes sense to me if that's how they want to do it.
Tried to find the article I read about an arrest and one particular small NH shop that showed up few years ago. No nobody was hurt, just a blatant PP that got a gun, got arrested, ended up in your online news, seemingly has been erased from existence.
Your posts along with @drgrant and others have been very informative within this thread (also other threads as well). I learned a bunch of shit regarding the NICS I had no clue about.
one-eyed Jack
Manufacturer
Might be a good idea for the dealer to explain his store policy (in writing) to the transferee in the case of a delay before doing the NICS check. Might save a lot of screaming and bitching and 1249 more posts on NES. Jack.
RumRunner
NES Member
ok, I'll say it, I've never had a delay (I'm doomed now). Can't even think about how many guns I've purchased over the years.
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