Denied on NICS Check-Am I allowed to purchase gun E-FA-10

teamRR

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,490
Likes
1,141
If the Feds are taking a gun from you it's because they think you're PP. They may come for the one but you are PP for ALL guns. And all they have to do is ask. If you lie you will get caught and that's going to make you PP even if it was a big mistake. If you refuse to answer they will just check with the state and then search based on that info, no warrant necessary, Probable Cause.
If the Feds show up you need to be able to honestly say that you transferred ownership to another person, and they are going to want to know who. But at that point you should have your lawyer on the phone.

They really don't need a warrant. 1)They have records that say you're PP (right or wrong doesn't matter). 2)The FFL says he gave you a gun. 3)The state says you have more guns. If you don't hand over every gun the records show you have, they will search your home. And MA records are known to include guns you no longer have.

My understanding, whether or not they have proof you have guns you shouldn't, they still need a warrant. At least after the fact - totally different if in pursuit or if upon getting to your house they see something indicating probable cause.

What about lying to feds makes you a PP anyway? Edit: apparently yes lying to feds is a crime, had to look that up. So I guess one is better off keeping it real simple (as always really) and not talking to them at all.

If they need a warrant they just started a bona-fide paper trail, still the case if they performed a search & seizure. That type of stuff can go right back before a judge, which is what you want if you are innocent. An erroneous NICS decision flies without real proof, once they go acting on it and confiscating property there would be a real burden of evidence that someone is the same someone who is a PP.
 
Last edited:

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,783
My understanding, whether or not they have proof you have guns you shouldn't, they still need a warrant. At least after the fact - totally different if in pursuit or if upon getting to your house they see something indicating probable cause.

What about lying to feds makes you a PP anyway? Edit: apparently yes lying to feds is a crime, had to look that up. So I guess one is better off keeping it real simple (as always really) and not talking to them at all.

If they need a warrant they just started a bona-fide paper trail, still the case if they performed a search & seizure. That type of stuff can go right back before a judge, which is what you want if you are innocent. An erroneous NICS decision flies without real proof, once they go acting on it and confiscating property there would be a real burden of evidence that someone is the same someone who is a PP.
The probable cause to search is the record that he is PP combined with the ffl saying he gave him a gun. Then add the guns MA says he owns. If he surenders all that then I would say no more PC, anything short of that leaves PC to search even if the records turn out to be incorrect. What sucks is that MA records are known to contain old info.
 

dgrantdoherty

NES Member
Rating - 100%
23   0   0
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
4,015
Likes
5,925
Location
The cape
I feel like while it is good to be prepared, this is getting blown out of proportion. Do like @Behind Enemy Lines said to save your dog. And do what feels right to you op. If op isn't a pp he will sort it out with either time or a upin. Good luck to op.
 

AHM

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
10,624
Likes
9,967
Appealing the denial is usually a waste of time. You might get a fast response but you likely won't. I had a customer denied and they appealed. The appeal took just over 3 years. In the end they agreed and gave him a ONE TIME UPIN to complete the original transaction. 3 years to get the ability to buy the original gun. He then did a purchase with me and was denied again. VAF UPIN online application averages 7 days to get a permanent UPIN. That is the right path if denied. If they deny the UPIN then get professional help.

This is all bureaucratic at this point. Jumping to lawyer is likely premature unless you have an unlimited bank account. Your problem is records at the FBI that you need to resolve. VAF UPIN is the first step to getting them to do the necessary detailed review (better then original NICS check) to determine if actually a problem.

You only need professional help if the ATF knocks or if they deny the UPIN. The odds are in your favor. You also know you are not prohibited.
A Fort Knox worth of gold in that whole response but...

If the Feds are taking a gun from you it's because they think you're PP. They may come for the one but you are PP for ALL guns.
^ THIS.

These issues can be complicated. If OP is not a pp which is a reasonable assumption given he was issued an ltc then he has little to fear if he keeps the gun and to answer his question he can buy a gun through efa10. But sometimes a person is mistakenly issued an ltc who is in fact a pp.
One would hope a PP wouldn't fall though the cracks of LTC issuance,
but that is the risk I was afraid of.
 

teamRR

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,490
Likes
1,141
The probable cause to search is the record that he is PP combined with the ffl saying he gave him a gun. Then add the guns MA says he owns. If he surenders all that then I would say no more PC, anything short of that leaves PC to search even if the records turn out to be incorrect. What sucks is that MA records are known to contain old info.

Has that actually happened say a week after? I mean they can knock on a door and ask, most people just comply, but if someone says "phuck off I am not answering questions or opening my door" I find it really hard to believe minus a warrant they are kicking that door in, guns drawn, putting everyone in cuffs, because a week ago somebody got transferred a rifle in error. They don't even know if the subject is actually at the residence.

Part of what compells authorities to perform a warrantless search by force is a concept of both PC & a pressing need for a response that does not allow time for a warrant; very similar to a warrantless arrest, basically after a short window police need a warrant even if they actually witnessed the crime (24 hours maybe?).

In practically all instances where police get warrants they have clear PC, the difference is usually there is no excuse to skip the process.
 

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,783
Has that actually happened say a week after? I mean they can knock on a door and ask, most people just comply, but if someone says "phuck off I am not answering questions or opening my door" I find it really hard to believe minus a warrant they are kicking that door in, guns drawn, putting everyone in cuffs, because a week ago somebody got transferred a rifle in error. They don't even know if the subject is actually at the residence.

Part of what compells authorities to perform a warrantless search by force is a concept of both PC & a pressing need for a response that does not allow time for a warrant; very similar to a warrantless arrest, basically after a short window police need a warrant even if they actually witnessed the crime (24 hours maybe?).

In practically all instances where police get warrants they have clear PC, the difference is usually there is no excuse to skip the process.
We are looking at it from different sides. You are looking at it from the citizen's side, what do the authorities need to do a search? I'm looking at it from the popo side, how can we make what we have justify a search. Maybe I've spent too much time working in close proximity to them, maybe not enough.
 

AHM

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
10,624
Likes
9,967
It always does.
Yahbut, ya ever notice how in some NES threads
the Hive Mind needs hot tongs to extract the relevant facts from the poster,
while in other threads, not so much?

(Of course, it turns out than in some of the reticent threads,
the OP should never have asked strangers for legal advice in public in the first place;
but let that go).
 
Last edited:

spt_1955

NES Member
Rating - 100%
111   0   0
Joined
Feb 6, 2014
Messages
1,867
Likes
442
And they would be doing it incorrectly and should be outed.
A link for what they have to do. Nothing more.
ATF.gov
^^^^ This. FFL needs to contact NICS. You do not have to return the gun. If NICS tells FFL that you are a prohibited person then you need to fond out from NICS why they think that.
 

teamRR

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,490
Likes
1,141
Yahbut, ya ever notice how in some NES threads
the Hive Mind needs hot tongs to extract the relevant facts from the poster,
while in other threads, not so much?

(Of course, it turns out than in some of the reticent threads,
the OP should never have asked strangers for legal advice in public in the first place;
but let that go).

What bugs me about this type of stuff is anyone can basically pickup the phone, call a lawyer (hopefully one who practices gun related law), and worst scenario you might spend $100 on a initial consultation. There is a stronger chance they outline what they think you should do and what they think they can do in a 10 minute phone call and simply leave you with free advice, along with their plan for next steps (that you would be charged for) on the table.

For a hobby like ours it seems like a no brainer, even if you gotta pay for it, to seek professional advice.

I feel like some of these posters are just incredibly cheap or they have an idea in their head that contacting a lawyer makes you guilty, or they really just don't want to hear the truth.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
4,139
Likes
3,363
Location
Merrimack Valley
Update: I am not an Prohibited Person!

I submitted an appeal and is was turned around in 3 weeks. I am shocked that I was cleared so quickly. No lawyer needed and little hassle beyond the tedious paperwork and sending fingerprint cards in via certified mail.
Did you get a UPIN?
 

icanthitit

NES Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
28
I did return the rifle for a refund, it was ridiculous hassle, as I live on the other end of the state. I now wish I hadn't since the appeal turned around so quickly.
 
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Jan 27, 2015
Messages
4,139
Likes
3,363
Location
Merrimack Valley
I did return the rifle for a refund, it was ridiculous hassle, as I live on the other end of the state. I now wish I hadn't since the appeal turned around so quickly.
Don't worry my friend, it'll be the gift that keeps on giving. That rifle is forever in your mircs registry and will never leave you.
 

Shevchenko

NES Member
Rating - 100%
34   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
152
Likes
433
Location
North of Boston
Of course we're assuming the OP is being puritan here and this is some kind of a false denial situation. There are a variety of people who have gotten issued LTCs in the
past despite actually being prohibited persons. I am going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, on average I want to say there was like 50-60 THOUSAND false denials in the US every year on average, and now there are probably even more. These are false denials where an appeal later produced a proceed.
When I went to get my first pistol from an FFL there was a guy in there pretty stressed out saying to me over and over "they're gonna f'n deny me again i know it" and I was like why do you think that? and he was claiming it was because someone with a lengthy record has his exact name so it denies him every time. Which is hilarious schadenfreude-wise if it's true, but my assumption is that was just his story to try to convince them to process the sale anyways, since I believe they go based on your SSN
 

CrackPot

NES Member
Rating - 100%
62   0   0
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
4,300
Likes
4,632
Location
Worcester County
When I went to get my first pistol from an FFL there was a guy in there pretty stressed out saying to me over and over "they're gonna f'n deny me again i know it" and I was like why do you think that? and he was claiming it was because someone with a lengthy record has his exact name so it denies him every time. Which is hilarious schadenfreude-wise if it's true, but my assumption is that was just his story to try to convince them to process the sale anyways, since I believe they go based on your SSN
They have your SSN if you enter it but It is not a magic bullet. Get a UPIN if you need a magic bullet. Anyone can write down anything in the SSN field.

I have a customer that gets proceed with no ssn and delayed when he enters it (eventual proceed). Go figure that one out...
 

CATI

NES Member
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
425
Likes
504
When I went to get my first pistol from an FFL there was a guy in there pretty stressed out saying to me over and over "they're gonna f'n deny me again i know it" and I was like why do you think that? and he was claiming it was because someone with a lengthy record has his exact name so it denies him every time. Which is hilarious schadenfreude-wise if it's true, but my assumption is that was just his story to try to convince them to process the sale anyways, since I believe they go based on your SSN
In the past I did finance. And they have a similar system with prohibited people (Drugs, financial crimes, etc). When you enter the customers information you would get a hit based off the name as well as the social. The hit could just be the name. “Jose blank”. Well Jose blank is pretty common. You would call up and they would clear it.
 
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
4,256
Likes
2,144
Location
Behind Enemy Lines
I have a customer that gets proceed with no ssn and delayed when he enters it (eventual proceed). Go figure that one out...
That doesn't surprise me at all. More info given means more chance for a database complication. Could be that someone somewhere once used the guy's SSN for nefarious purposes. 🤔
 

DieselSmoke88

NES Member
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
121
Likes
114
Location
Boston
I also have an LTC for the last 15 years and cannot pass a NICS check due to stolen identity issues. Very long story.
Legal help is not cheap and I got very discouraged paying for something thats not my fault. And why bother when I can just buy used on EFA-10?
Boston police did their due diligence which is more than the damned feds did. Kudos to them.
 
Top Bottom