Denied on NICS Check-Am I allowed to purchase gun E-FA-10

Salyeica

NES Member
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
2,939
Likes
1,320
Location
Utah
The Bass Pro case involved Glocks. Bass Pro sent out a letter that lied stating that the guns "must be returned". I would have enjoyed that one, asking them to provide the explicit statute or regulation that places such an obligation on the buyer as the regulations define it as an unfair and deceptive trade practice (on list, disliked by AG) and I am a victim. Or, perhaps "I will do so immediately when ordered by a court of competent jurisdiction", or even "have your attorney talk to mine".
Cabela’s sold me an off-roster Kahr several years ago and called me asking me to return it, not demanding that I do so. I obliged, mostly because I wasn't a fan of it, but also because they bought me out of any accessories I had purchased for it + 20%. Replaced it with a Glock 43.
 

icanthitit

NES Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
28
I fully intend to return the rifle (dealer is on vacation until next week). I specifically asked my local PD's firearms officer if he thought ATF was coming to get it over the weekend. He had already spoken to them already and didn't seem to think I was getting a knock on the door. I also offered to leave the rifle at the PD just in case and he didn't think I needed to.

I plan on buying a similar rifle through FTF and if the feds come to get it...so be it, I can live with that loss.

Thanks for the advice.
 

SERE

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
20   0   0
Joined
Oct 30, 2010
Messages
6,860
Likes
5,973
Location
North of Boston
I fully intend to return the rifle

Welcome to NES, firstly. Best of luck to you in getting this resolved without complications. [thumbsup] Matt

Cynical Hypotheticals.

Did you get a great deal on the rifle? As in too good to be true.

Is it a hard to get rifle in MA?

Were you looking at any other rifles at the shop?

It is surprising that a shop had what you needed on their walls at this time. Usually only high end rifles out there now.
 

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.6%
71   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
53,235
Likes
12,052
Location
90% in NH
The Bass Pro case involved Glocks. Bass Pro sent out a letter that lied stating that the guns "must be returned". I would have enjoyed that one, asking them to provide the explicit statute or regulation that places such an obligation on the buyer as the regulations define it as an unfair and deceptive trade practice (on list, disliked by AG) and I am a victim. Or, perhaps "I will do so immediately when ordered by a court of competent jurisdiction", or even "have your attorney talk to mine".
Not the way it went down. I was at BP opening night when they were selling new Glocks. I was there the following morning as the last buyer returned his Glock. BP called each buyer and demanded the returns.
 

icanthitit

NES Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
28
Welcome to NES, firstly. Best of luck to you in getting this resolved without complications. [thumbsup] Matt

Cynical Hypotheticals.

Did you get a great deal on the rifle? As in too good to be true.

Is it a hard to get rifle in MA?

Were you looking at any other rifles at the shop?

It is surprising that a shop had what you needed on their walls at this time. Usually only high end rifles out there now.
As far as pre-ban AR-15s go it was pretty good. It wasn’t a screaming deal, but I am ok with paying a noob tax on my starter purchases. I am not particularly attached to the rifle and could find another suitable rifle to do the same job at a similar price point. I am fine giving up THIS rifle, but I would like to have A rifle.

Concern 1 is not having the ATF show up at my house for any reason.

Concern 2 (see 1) is not pissing my wife off.

Concern 3 is the legality of just taking a refund on this rifle and buying another through the EFA-10 portal.
 

Picton

NES Member
Rating - 100%
28   0   0
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
14,101
Likes
16,212
Location
MA
As far as pre-ban AR-15s go it was pretty good. It wasn’t a screaming deal, but I am ok with paying a noob tax on my starter purchases. I am not particularly attached to the rifle and could find another suitable rifle to do the same job at a similar price point. I am fine giving up THIS rifle, but I would like to have A rifle.

Concern 1 is not having the ATF show up at my house for any reason.

Concern 2 (see 1) is not pissing my wife off.

Concern 3 is the legality of just taking a refund on this rifle and buying another through the EFA-10 portal.

You seem firmly set on wanting to return the gun to the FFL and then do an EFA-10 FTF to replace it.

I see nothing unlawful about that.
 

Rob Boudrie

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
38,480
Likes
17,176
Not the way it went down. I was at BP opening night when they were selling new Glocks. I was there the following morning as the last buyer returned his Glock. BP called each buyer and demanded the returns.
I was not aware it was a call. Too bad nobody stood up to BP.
 

Rob Boudrie

NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
38,480
Likes
17,176
You could always bargain with the dealer - "I'll return it to you in return for a written promise that you will refund my payment in full if I do not get a NICS proceed after my appeal".
 

icanthitit

NES Member
Rating - 100%
5   0   0
Joined
Nov 11, 2020
Messages
21
Likes
28
You could always bargain with the dealer - "I'll return it to you in return for a written promise that you will refund my payment in full if I do not get a NICS proceed after my appeal".
This return is for a full refund, which I think he is required to do. Again, I have no indication or feeling that this FFL is trying to pull a fast one. He has been direct and easy to deal with every step of this process, I'd be VERY surprised if he is scheming here. AND has 100% positive feedback on NES.
 

sbi

NES Member
Rating - 100%
7   0   0
Joined
Feb 17, 2013
Messages
2,847
Likes
1,204
1. I am sure everyone here is curious to know who the FFL is ;)
2. Keep us posted.
 
Rating - 100%
13   0   0
Joined
Apr 8, 2013
Messages
4,256
Likes
2,144
Location
Behind Enemy Lines
Cabela’s sold me an off-roster Kahr several years ago and called me asking me to return it, not demanding that I do so. I obliged, mostly because I wasn't a fan of it, but also because they bought me out of any accessories I had purchased for it + 20%. Replaced it with a Glock 43.
Yeah, I bought one too. Seemed like a good idea at the time. Later on down the road, Cabela's demanded it back via several nasty threatening phone calls. They never offered me anything more than a refund for my trouble or I might have seen it differently. Eventually, they stopped calling and I heard nothing more about it. It's not like it was one of those horrible extra-killy super-dangerous Glocks that Maura hates so much. It's just a Kahr for goodness sake... made right here in Worcester no less. [laugh]
 

AHM

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
10,624
Likes
9,967
My local police looked over this whole thing again this morning and assures me that I am a rightfully licensed firearms owner and that he has no intention of revoking.
When your local police imply that you're not a Federally Prohibited Person,
it means they have absolutely no clue about whether you're an FPP.
Your problem may simply be that some overworked Fed investigator
is misreading some part of your history -
maybe they saw an arrest record and overlooked the subsequent acquittal.

But maybe some obscure court record which might make you an FPP
may only have been digitized and easily available to Fed investigators
after your LTC history check was performed.
Local police are not your lawyers; can't see the Feds' details, so can't know.

It's very good that the local police don't find this issue makes you unsuitable for an LTC.
They could be much harder to convince than the Feds.


This officer did acknowledge that I needed to return the rifle (though he seemed to be confounded by all of this too).
Local cop is confounded, but is giving you free legal advice.
tumblr_olnh3gZmPk1uijsn1o1_400.gifv



If the local LEO says you're rightfully licensed, there is NO reason to return the gun.
The local LEO is not a Federal judge.
The local LEO is not the ATF agent's boss.


For the group: could this be one of those Catch-22 things where the state says he is we don't know why he isn't good to go and the Feds say he isn't.... it has happened before.
Clarified that for you.
(Well, maybe there's some other failure mode you're thinking of
that I've never even heard of).

Now if I were you, I would be doing a eFA-10 and having a licensed friend hold the gun for you for a while, if this goes sideways, and I have a sneaking suspicion it might, they are not going to be able to confiscate a pre ban high dollar firearm from you with limited avenues to get it transferred to someone else. Your friend can eFA-10 it back to you when this is cleared up, or sell it for you if it does not.

Print out a receipt of the eFA-10 and keep it for your records. If asked where the gun is just tell them you sold it. If any other questions are asked STFU and call your Lawyer. SAY NOTHING except " I'm sorry Officer, I have sold the gun to a licensed individual in a Face to Face transaction and it was recorded via a eFA-10. On the advice of counsel I will say no more to you without my Attorney being present" Repeat that as many times as you have to. BE RESPECTFUL, but assertive. Keep your mouth shut.
If OP is an FPP, he's not just prohibited from possessing firearms,
he's also prohibited from selling them.


I fully intend to return the rifle (dealer is on vacation until next week). I specifically asked my local PD's firearms officer if he thought ATF was coming to get it over the weekend. He had already spoken to them already and didn't seem to think I was getting a knock on the door. I also offered to leave the rifle at the PD just in case and he didn't think I needed to.

I plan on buying a similar rifle through FTF and if the feds come to get it...so be it, I can live with that loss.
Do Exactly The Same Thing, and get a different outcome.
DifferentComplicatedKakapo-max-1mb.gif



Concern 1 is not having the ATF show up at my house for any reason.

Concern 2 (see 1) is not pissing my wife off.

Concern 3 is the legality of just taking a refund on this rifle and buying another through the EFA-10 portal.
  1. There is nothing that you can personally do to completely eliminate the chance of the Feds showing up, especially since you don't know what is triggering them.
  2. I was going to say that your wife is the least of your worries. But if you haven't taught her to say absolutely nothing to anybody about this - not the local police, and especially not the Feds - then she is something to worry about.
  3. The Feds are currently convinced that it's not legal for you to own any guns. By you talking to your local police, now they're wondering whether it's legal for you to own any guns. The local police have spoken to the Feds; regardless of what they told you, they may know what has convinced the Feds that it's not legal for you to own guns. They may not believe it, but they could be double-checking.
I infer that some NESers who have gotten mistaken denials from the Feds have successfully convinced them to grant permission to proceed by following the ATF appeal process without hiring a lawyer.

However, I don't know if any of these success stories had gotten denials on their first AR purchase,
then convinced the Feds to proceed despite having non-trivial arrest records
without hiring a lawyer.


It's conceivable that you can go through the appeals process without a lawyer,
and win or lose, won't be arrested for the Federal felony of being an FPP in Possession.

It's inconceivable that you can just return the gun without following the process,
and have no risk of ever being arrested for the Federal felony of FPP in Possession.
(You already own a handgun).
If that happens, you'll need a lawyer whether or not you get convicted.

You should contact one of the good Mass gun lawyers now.
Sigh.
 

CrackPot

NES Member
Rating - 100%
62   0   0
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
4,300
Likes
4,632
Location
Worcester County
The amount supposition in this post requires a suppository to pass.

If in fact a denial was received by the FFL after the Brady date (and I have no evidence/proof of this from the OP), then an ATF agent is supposed to knock on your door if you are in fact prohibited. The problem is that about 95% of NICS denials are considered false positives, that is they are over turned on appeal or don't meet the standards for the ATF to follow up on.

To repeat the sequence of events if in fact a denial occurred as described (and this is from first hand experience as an FFL who has been through this)
  1. NICS background check done
  2. Delayed received with Brady date day after 3 full business days (Brady date itself can be a weekend/holiday)
  3. NICS does not respond before Brady date
  4. FFL releases gun to customer
  5. NICS decides its a Denied
  6. Call is made by ATF to FFL informing them of the Denied
    1. Reason for call is that the gun may have been released because of no response by NICS
    2. If not released, then we are done
    3. If released, then copy of 4473 is read to ATF and then faxed/scanned-emailed to ATF
  7. In case of release of gun, ATF must further evaluate basis for denial to determine if unlawful possession of firearm (under federal law) has occured
  8. If reasonable evidence exists, then ATF knocks on your door
95% of cases there is no knock because on further review they do not meet the standards for taking action.

The problem is the integrity of the FBI database used for NICSs checks. It is incomplete and often impossible to understand. What does a CWOF mean? They are trying to parse records of 50 states plus multiple territories to understand if a person is prohibited. They will err on the side of denying access. This is why the false positive rate is so high.

Records as they are computerized are made available to the FBI. The arrest may be present but the dropping of charges may not. That results in a denial but when they further review and see a 10year old arrest and no conviction they determine that they have no evidence to support confiscation.

I have a multiple second hand reports of denials from my customers that were successfully appealed. I have one case where the ATF did show up and the person talked them out of taking the gun because they knew what the problem was and had proof of the dropped charges in hand.

The OP already decided to return the gun and go private transaction. The fact is the ATF will still show up at the door if they decide it is not a false positive. You will then prove you dont have it via receipt for return of the gun, but that will not stop the knock.

Appealing the denial is usually a waste of time. You might get a fast response but you likely won't. I had a customer denied and they appealed. The appeal took just over 3 years. In the end they agreed and gave him a ONE TIME UPIN to complete the original transaction. 3 years to get the ability to buy the original gun. He then did a purchase with me and was denied again. VAF UPIN online application averages 7 days to get a permanent UPIN. That is the right path if denied. If they deny the UPIN then get professional help.

This is all bureaucratic at this point. Jumping to lawyer is likely premature unless you have an unlimited bank account. Your problem is records at the FBI that you need to resolve. VAF UPIN is the first step to getting them to do the necessary detailed review (better then original NICS check) to determine if actually a problem.

You only need professional help if the ATF knocks or if they deny the UPIN. The odds are in your favor. You also know you are not prohibited.


When your local police imply that you're not a Federally Prohibited Person,
it means they have absolutely no clue about whether you're an FPP.
Your problem may simply be that some overworked Fed investigator
is misreading some part of your history -
maybe they saw an arrest record and overlooked the subsequent acquittal.

But maybe some obscure court record which might make you an FPP
may only have been digitized and easily available to Fed investigators
after your LTC history check was performed.
Local police are not your lawyers; can't see the Feds' details, so can't know.

It's very good that the local police don't find this issue makes you unsuitable for an LTC.
They could be much harder to convince than the Feds.



Local cop is confounded, but is giving you free legal advice.
tumblr_olnh3gZmPk1uijsn1o1_400.gifv




The local LEO is not a Federal judge.
The local LEO is not the ATF agent's boss.



Clarified that for you.
(Well, maybe there's some other failure mode you're thinking of
that I've never even heard of).


If OP is an FPP, he's not just prohibited from possessing firearms,
he's also prohibited from selling them.



Do Exactly The Same Thing, and get a different outcome.
DifferentComplicatedKakapo-max-1mb.gif




  1. There is nothing that you can personally do to completely eliminate the chance of the Feds showing up, especially since you don't know what is triggering them.
  2. I was going to say that your wife is the least of your worries. But if you haven't taught her to say absolutely nothing to anybody about this - not the local police, and especially not the Feds - then she is something to worry about.
  3. The Feds are currently convinced that it's not legal for you to own any guns. By you talking to your local police, now they're wondering whether it's legal for you to own any guns. The local police have spoken to the Feds; regardless of what they told you, they may know what has convinced the Feds that it's not legal for you to own guns. They may not believe it, but they could be double-checking.
I infer that some NESers who have gotten mistaken denials from the Feds have successfully convinced them to grant permission to proceed by following the ATF appeal process without hiring a lawyer.

However, I don't know if any of these success stories had gotten denials on their first AR purchase,
then convinced the Feds to proceed despite having non-trivial arrest records
without hiring a lawyer.


It's conceivable that you can go through the appeals process without a lawyer,
and win or lose, won't be arrested for the Federal felony of being an FPP in Possession.

It's inconceivable that you can just return the gun without following the process,
and have no risk of ever being arrested for the Federal felony of FPP in Possession.
(You already own a handgun).
If that happens, you'll need a lawyer whether or not you get convicted.

You should contact one of the good Mass gun lawyers now.
Sigh.
 

HARRYM

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,904
Likes
3,913
Location
Massachusetts/NH
Am I correct in that for an LTC it's up to the local authorities and they have the full right of denial under "may issue"? Sometimes in a serious matter (whatever that means) a case that is considered "adjudicated" or CWOF can get you denied for an LTC?

FID is more defined with will issue correct?
 

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,784
Am I correct in that for an LTC it's up to the local authorities and they have the full right of denial under "may issue"? Sometimes in a serious matter (whatever that means) a case that is considered "adjudicated" or CWOF can get you denied for an LTC?

FID is more defined with will issue correct?
An LTC can be denied or revoked based on suitability. You then can appeal this, but good luck with that.
With an FID, the Local PD can file with the court to deny or revoke on suitability, good luck getting a judge to not grant this.

The difference is that with an LTC it's revoked or denied and then you have to fight to get it back. But with the FID they have to go to a judge and "ask" that it be denied/revoked.
 

HARRYM

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Messages
2,904
Likes
3,913
Location
Massachusetts/NH
An LTC can be denied or revoked based on suitability. You then can appeal this, but good luck with that.
With an FID, the Local PD can file with the court to deny or revoke on suitability, good luck getting a judge to not grant this.

The difference is that with an LTC it's revoked or denied and then you have to fight to get it back. But with the FID they have to go to a judge and "ask" that it be denied/revoked.
Thanks, I thought that even an arrest (with no conviction) can get you denied. The OP never mentioned ( as his right not to) what the serious arrests were for but it's likely behind the denial I would think.
 

teamRR

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,490
Likes
1,141
Myself, if I was squeaky clean with no one else to piss off in the process I would do the following. By sqeaky clean I mean nothing that could be construed as a prohibiting factor, ie no DUI's, open court cases, restraining orders, not just depending on the concept that an LTC was issued as the feds don't give a shit (though such info may help w/ your appeal)...

1. Consult a lawyer, one who deals with firearms, ASAP

2. Provided the lawyer doesn't advise otherwise, I might move all other guns out of the house.

3. Provided the lawyer doesn't advise otherwise file that appeal ASAP

By forcing the issue, if the ATF does come, simply stating you were denied does not grant them a warrant for search, arrest, or otherwise. They will need to offer proof you are prohibited.

Or if you need to avoid the heat, due to your wife or other circumstances, that is understandable. If you want the gun you should be able to leave it with the FFL until the matter is resolved, could take a year, but eventually you will get your pre ban AR.
 

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,784
Thanks, I thought that even an arrest (with no conviction) can get you denied. The OP never mentioned ( as his right not to) what the serious arrests were for but it's likely behind the denial I would think.
No, suitability is a MA thing and only for LTCs and FIDs. It does not apply to the Fed NICS check.

So a CWOF/Dismissed can get you suitability MA LTC/FID denial/revoke. But it is not a reason for a NICS denial.
 

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,784
Myself, if I was squeaky clean with no one else to piss off in the process I would do the following. By sqeaky clean I mean nothing that could be construed as a prohibiting factor, ie no DUI's, open court cases, restraining orders, not just depending on the concept that an LTC was issued as the feds don't give a shit (though such info may help w/ your appeal)...

1. Consult a lawyer, one who deals with firearms, ASAP

2. Provided the lawyer doesn't advise otherwise, I might move all other guns out of the house.

3. Provided the lawyer doesn't advise otherwise file that appeal ASAP

By forcing the issue, if the ATF does come, simply stating you were denied does not grant them a warrant for search, arrest, or otherwise. They will need to offer proof you are prohibited.

Or if you need to avoid the heat, due to your wife or other circumstances, that is understandable. If you want the gun you should be able to leave it with the FFL until the matter is resolved, could take a year, but eventually you will get your pre ban AR.
Just moving them out does nothing, you have to transfer them to someone else.
 

teamRR

NES Member
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Joined
Apr 24, 2019
Messages
1,490
Likes
1,141
Just moving them out does nothing, you have to transfer them to someone else.

In MA its wierd but I was more thinking of the feds specifically showing up with a warrant. They might even take your ammo. If they get the gun they are looking for I assume the feds call it a day unless they see more guns. If it was MA authorities sure they would demand everything they can prove you own.
 

Garys

NES Member
Rating - 100%
82   0   0
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
18,810
Likes
3,410
Location
Stoughton
If I were a suspicious and cynical person, I might be tempted to think that the FFL got a better offer on he rifle and wanted it back to sell to someone else. Thus he came up with the denied story.

Good thing I'm not cynical and suspicious.
 

42!

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
7,963
Likes
5,784
In MA its wierd but I was more thinking of the feds specifically showing up with a warrant. They might even take your ammo. If they get the gun they are looking for I assume the feds call it a day unless they see more guns. If it was MA authorities sure they would demand everything they can prove you own.
If the Feds are taking a gun from you it's because they think you're PP. They may come for the one but you are PP for ALL guns. And all they have to do is ask. If you lie you will get caught and that's going to make you PP even if it was a big mistake. If you refuse to answer they will just check with the state and then search based on that info, no warrant necessary, Probable Cause.
If the Feds show up you need to be able to honestly say that you transferred ownership to another person, and they are going to want to know who. But at that point you should have your lawyer on the phone.

They really don't need a warrant. 1)They have records that say you're PP (right or wrong doesn't matter). 2)The FFL says he gave you a gun. 3)The state says you have more guns. If you don't hand over every gun the records show you have, they will search your home. And MA records are known to include guns you no longer have.
 

nstassel

NES Member
Rating - 100%
20   0   0
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
3,444
Likes
8,508
Location
Middlesex County
These issues can be complicated. If OP is not a pp which is a reasonable assumption given he was issued an ltc then he has little to fear if he keeps the gun and to answer his question he can buy a gun through efa10. But sometimes a person is mistakenly issued an ltc who is in fact a pp. I recently saw this with my own eyes. A newly minted ltc holder got a nics reject. I looked at his cori and clearly he was a pp. Not gray area, not suitability, a bona fide prohibited person.

Technically he shouldn't possess a firearm at all no matter how he acquires it.
 
Top Bottom