CVA optima/BH 209 problem

[Inside Out]

Looking for help on this problem:

The new optima that I picked up for this muzzleloader season occasionally fails to fire. I noticed this first at the range a few weeks ago when using BH 209 I had preloaded days earlier into speed loaders and kept in my not bone dry, but not overly humid basement. At the range, the firing pin would drop on the primer but nothing would happen. Put in a new primer, tried again, same problem. Dumped the powder, reloaded with my buddy's powder, and it fired. Reloaded with powder from my original container (that is, not preloaded into speed loaders) and it fired five or six more times with no trouble.

Had the same issue again today in the field. The powder had been left in the rifle overnight from yesterday's unsuccessful hunt, and when I went to fire it this morning, nothing happened. Swapped out the primer and tried again, still nothing. Dumped the powder, lit off a primer (no bullet or powder), then tried powder from my buddy, and it fired. It fired a second time when I reloaded with my own powder.

So I'm at a loss. Doesn't seem to be the primers. I was ready to blame my powder, but it has worked off that powder in the past and it worked today, though after failing. Originally i thought it was due to my storing powder in the speedloaders for an extended time, but that doesn't really explain today's problem. The barrel and breech plug are always clean when this problem happens.

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

 

[HorizontalHunter]

When you say "nothing happens" does that mean that the primer does not fire or does it mean that you have a primer pop but the main charge does not ignite.

I am a sidelock shooter but I have found that when there are ignition problems, primer fires but main charge does not, it is usually caused by excessive oil in the breech. It is preferred to tore BP rifles muzzle down so excess oil does not collect in the breech.

All of the substitute powders have higher ignition temps than real BP and most have a greater tendency to absorb moisture. I store all of my powder in a vacuum sealed bag.

Bob

 

[Mark from MA]

I have an optima and use triple 7 pellets. Never an issue. I never used blackhorn.

Id check the breach plug channel make sure you can see air thru it. Its only a pin hole. But its gotta be free of oil and clean.

 

[Inside Out]

When you say "nothing happens" does that mean that the primer does not fire or does it mean that you have a primer pop but the main charge does not ignite.

I am a sidelock shooter but I have found that when there are ignition problems, primer fires but main charge does not, it is usually caused by excessive oil in the breech. It is preferred to tore BP rifles muzzle down so excess oil does not collect in the breech.

All of the substitute powders have higher ignition temps than real BP and most have a greater tendency to absorb moisture. I store all of my powder in a vacuum sealed bag.

Bob

The primer fires, but the main charge does not ignite -- or at least that's what it seems to me. That said, it's nearly silent, as opposed to when I fire a primer off alone, when there is a little pop. So maybe the primer isn't firing. I'm pretty new to muzzleloaders so I don't have much basis for comparison.

 

[reveille]

clean the oil out of the barrell before you shoot and check that breach also try some different primers. hope you get it shooting, I then shoot 2 primers to season the bore. BH 209 is a great powder you will see excellent accuracy.

When you get it firing, swab in between shots I use a mixture of 50/50, 90% rubbing alcohol and windshield washer fluid, It works great and dries fast.

 

[fishhawk357]

I had this problem when shooting black horn powder. With a little Internet searching I found out my flash channel was too narrow. I opened up the flash channel but don't remember the exact size. Not sure if it was .030 or .035 but it solved my issues. I use regular Remington shotgun primers and all is well. Black horn is harder to ignite to begin with so the narrow flash channel was not allowing a hot enough flash to reach powder. You could possibly have a narrow channel. My rifle is a CVA also.

 

[OPM]

I have TC so I cannot speak to the potential narrow flash channel issue of CVA, but BH209 real does not like oil or solvents. And you should NEVER take it to field clean. Odds are the first shot will be a flyer. So, after cleaning 1) fire a primer; 2) run a dry patch; 3) fire second primer; 4) load powder and bullet and fire – you now ready for the field and/or 15 shots at the range. Do not clean in between. I use CCI, which seem slightly more aggressive than Remington, but both work for me. Again, BH209 needs dirty gun to work. Do not even dry clean it or you’ll get a flyer. Essentially your first shot after cleaning is trash.

 

[Mark from MA]

I run into none of that with the triple seven. I fire one primer just to make sure the breach hole is clean then all my shots after that group pretty well.
Even the first.

 

[Inside Out]

Thanks for all the feedback, much appreciated.

 

[OPM]

I run into none of that with the triple seven. I fire one primer just to make sure the breach hole is clean then all my shots after that group pretty well.
Even the first.

I bet most people started with Triple Seven or Pyrodex pellets. I know I did. However, BH209 has many advantages. First and most important, you can shoot them for hours without any cleaning in between and loading will be easy and shots stay on target. With 777 it’s 2-3 shots and you have to clean. Second, you get a substantially smaller smoke cloud. It might not be important on the range, but often critical in the field. I am often blessed to drop the deer in its tracks, but sometimes they run and seeing were they went is often enormously helpful - especially, if the animal was shot immediately preceding sunset. FYI, with Remington primers I get almost identical amount of smoke to a modern rifle. With CCI I get a bit more, but not anywhere near what I was getting with Pyrodex. Pellets are convenient, but ability to custom tune the load is nice. Also BH209 does not have a nasty smell like Pyrodex. 777 stinks less than Pyrodex, but more than BH209. Furthermore, cleaning with same products I use for other guns is a plus. Not only do I get a cleaner muzzleloader, but I also save money and bench space.

Bottom line I’ve harvested deer with both and I’ve punch holes in paper with both – I prefer BH209. As far as I can tell, the first shot flyer is the only negative to BH209. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with 777. It’s a good product.

 

[exo]

Are you using standard 209 primers or 209 muzzleloader primers? The manufacturer of blackhorn says that the 209 primers marketed specifically for muzzleloaders aren't hot enough and to use standard 209 primers. Blackhorn powder takes a little more oomph to ignite reliably.

Are you using the standard breech plug or the blackhorn breech plug? The plug that comes with the optima is not ideal, CVA makes a breech plug specifically for blackhorn.

 

[Inside Out]

Are you using standard 209 primers or 209 muzzleloader primers? The manufacturer of blackhorn says that the 209 primers marketed specifically for muzzleloaders aren't hot enough and to use standard 209 primers. Blackhorn powder takes a little more oomph to ignite reliably.

Are you using the standard breech plug or the blackhorn breech plug? The plug that comes with the optima is not ideal, CVA makes a breech plug specifically for blackhorn.

I'm using standard Fiocchi 209 primers with the standard breech plug that was widened by the dealer specifically to accommodate Blackhorn (like mentioned in post 6 above). I was told that by doing so, I didn't need the Blackhorn-specific breech plug -- but maybe I need to reevaluate that.

 

[exo]

I'm using standard Fiocchi 209 primers with the standard breech plug that was widened by the dealer specifically to accommodate Blackhorn (like mentioned in post 6 above). I was told that by doing so, I didn't need the Blackhorn-specific breech plug -- but maybe I need to reevaluate that.

The blackhorn plug from CVA is very different from their standard plug. They actually hollow out a big section, not sure what the flash hole size is.

Standard optima plug:

Blackhorn 209 plug:

 

[Mark from MA]

I shoot at least ten times with the 777 without cleaning. It has very little smell if any compared to pyrodex. I pretty much chucked all the pyrodex.

777 also cleans out with a few swabs of water based cleaner. Ill stick with it for my cva rather than alter breech plugs and primers to get a powder to ignite

 

[exo]

I shoot at least ten times with the 777 without cleaning. It has very little smell if any compared to pyrodex. I pretty much chucked all the pyrodex.

777 also cleans out with a few swabs of water based cleaner. Ill stick with it for my cva rather than alter breech plugs and primers to get a powder to ignite

I switched to blackhorn 209 because it's not hygroscopic and it's easier to clean. It leaves a light, sooty residue that just wipes off.

That said, I haven't tried loose 777 or pyrodex. The pellets are annoying because they leave a ring of residue in the barrel, and if you're not careful you can end up seating the bullet on the ring rather than on the pellets. The packaging for the pellets also leaves something to be desired... it's not airtight, so those pellets are absorbing moisture from the day they leave the factory.

 

[Mark from MA]

I have the 777 pellets sitting in a tackle box in my garage for years. Hot and cold. They still fire fine