Cumberland RI CCP: Should i go local or to the AG?

[Masterguns]

As stated i'm looking to see if any other Cumberland Residents have gone through the concealed carry process and if going through the Town or going to the AG is the better route?

I formerly held an ALP Class A in MA, but so far am finding the requirements for the RI CCP to be kind of ridiculous... (and i thought i was leaving this kind of nonsense behind in MA)

according to this site http://rifol.org/pistolpermitstudy.php

if i go through the town it's either the PD or the Town Council?

The Chief writes that the Cumberland Police Department is NOT the licensing authority (the Town Council is the licensing authority), but the application says the Cumberland Police Department IS the licensing authority. For the purpose of this report, the Cumberland Police Department will be considered the licensing authority.

but this is the WTF moment for me

Notes: The Cumberland Police Department requires a Psychological evaluation administered by the University of Rhode Island Psychological Testing Service and the expense for said testing shall be borne by the applicant.

a RIDICULOUS hoop to jump through and i'm not even in MA anymore... who would of thought it



http://www.riag.state.ri.us/documents/forms/pistol_renewal_form.pdf

On to the AG side of things (which doesn't seem to require me to get and pay for some nonsensical Psych test) which seems fairly straight forward except for the thing about attaching a separate letter "stating the reasons a permit is needed for a full time basis" which i didn't have to do in MA and never was good at the ole write a essay questions in school and wouldn't know what to write.


http://www.riag.state.ri.us/documents/forms/pistol_instructions.pdf
These instructions make it sound to me like i already need to be a victim and show a SPECIFIC risk to life, limb, or property


I never thought getting a CCP in RI would be harder than in MA but here it is... any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated

thanks in advance

 

[newportri]

As you probably know, the AG is May Issue, and unless you have a (good) reason to carry you will probably not get a permit from him. Just claiming self defense will not get you a permit unless you can demonstrate your life is in danger. The AG often places a restriction on their permits, which has no legality in RI.
The Chief is Shall Issue, and is typically eaiser to get, at least if the Chief followed the law. Unfortunately, the Cumberland Chief has a requirement that can not be fulfilled since the psych test doesn't exists. It is possible that he has dropped this requirement and I would recommend that you contact the CPD and request an application (in writing).

 

[n1bsbri]

Just to expand on what newportri said, the psych tests are ripe for a challenge. Because of their unavailability, they are a de facto barrier to getting a CCW in Cumberland, which most certainly defies the intent of the state statute.

If you are the type that likes to take on a challenge, going through the process in Cumberland would be a good start.

Unless you have a specific threat to your life that you can articulate, forget about the AG permit, IMHO.

 

[Masterguns]

Thanks for the info guys, i was unaware this wacky Psych test didn't even exist! Looks like i'm just going to have to wait for a change to happen in Cumberland.

 

[newportri]

Looks like i'm just going to have to wait for a change to happen in Cumberland.

Yes, you are correct that you will have to wait since no one are willing to challenge the Chief's policy..

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

The good news about Rhode Island is that it's laws are pretty gun friendly. They don't have approved guns or very many 'sensitive' places. And carry licenses are shall issue and case law supports this. The bad news is that it's incredibly uncommon for an issuing authority to be challenged when they don't follow the law and few in RI carry on the fight once they get their permit.

Local police departments are required to issue permits, although many won't. However the courts will force them to if anyone bothers to sue. The case law is very clear and chiefs don't have a choice. All it takes is for them to get hit once or twice and they'll follow the law. It's happened in a few towns already and there's currently a case going on against another recalcitrant chief. If the OP (or anyone else in RI) is interested in 'fixing' their town I will be happy to refer them to an attorney who will sue their for a fairly reasonable fee. This problem is fixable.

AG permits are not nearly as difficult to get as the rumor mill suggests. All an applicant has to do is demonstrate a 'proper purpose'. The RI Supreme Court has held that collecting is a 'proper purpose'. Anyone that is denied an AG permit is entitled to all the information that was used to deny their application (per Mosby). Since they usually don't have any information of this kind, they generally back down and issue a permit with (meaningless) restrictions.

Rhode Island's problems are easily surmountable with a little effort. Gun owners have all the means and tools that are require change licensing practices.

 

[newportri]

Some very good points by KnuckleDragger. The problem is not the law, but that the Chief Law Enforcement Officers who refuse to follow the law themselves and issue permits to applicants to meet the requirements in RIGL 11-47-11....
Hopefully we will have case law in RI soon with regards to unconstitutional (RI) denials, and hopefully we won't have to sue every Chief in the state that doesn't want to issue. With a positive outcome of the firste case, it should make it easier for the rest of RI to exercise their rights.

I agree that it's not that difficult to get an AG permit, but it's difficult to get an unrestricted permit. Although you are entitled to all the information used to make the decision, they are still May Issue and can deny you for whatever reason. There is obviously a lot of discrimination by the AG on who gets a permit and who gets a restricted permit. I believe many in MA sued and won over a denial and hopefully we can get similar case law against the AG in RI. However, since the Chiefs are Shall Issue I think this is the first battle that should be fought.

 

[n1bsbri]

AG permits are not nearly as difficult to get as the rumor mill suggests. All an applicant has to do is demonstrate a 'proper purpose'. The RI Supreme Court has held that collecting is a 'proper purpose'. Anyone that is denied an AG permit is entitled to all the information that was used to deny their application (per Mosby). Since they usually don't have any information of this kind, they generally back down and issue a permit with (meaningless) restrictions.

The phasing in 11-47-18 for AG permits is "proper showing of need". I'm not aware of any case law on what this means. The RI AG's policy is covered on page 4 of this document:

http://www.riag.ri.gov/documents/forms/pistol_instructions.pdf

What you are referring to is "proper reason" as stated in 11-47-11 for town shall-issue permits. In Mosby v. Devine 2001, the judge stated that being a gun collector was a proper reason. Page 22 of this document:

http://rifol.org/attachments/File/Mosby_vs_Devine01-161.pdf

 

[Masterguns]

The phasing in 11-47-18 for AG permits is "proper showing of need". I'm not aware of any case law on what this means. The RI AG's policy is covered on page 4 of this document:

http://www.riag.ri.gov/documents/forms/pistol_instructions.pdf

What you are referring to is "proper reason" as stated in 11-47-11 for town shall-issue permits. In Mosby v. Devine 2001, the judge stated that being a gun collector was a proper reason. Page 22 of this document:

http://rifol.org/attachments/File/Mosby_vs_Devine01-161.pdf

Some good info there, and if like the Mosby transcript being an "avid gun collector" is a good enough reason than that's great. However 11-47-11 still makes it sound to me as if i already have to be a victim and "have a good reason to fear"

I suppose i should probably just call the PD or the chief and get their stance on it, while it doesn't look like anyone on here has gone the town route yet i'm sure plenty of other people have approached the Cumberland PD about it and i imagine they have a canned answer already.

 

[n1bsbri]

However 11-47-11 still makes it sound to me as if i already have to be a victim and "have a good reason to fear"

The important word in this part of the statute is "or". The way I see it, the "or" makes the statement "good reason to fear" inoperative. All you need is "any other proper reason".

... if it appears that the applicant has good reason to fear an injury to his or her person or property or has any other proper reason for carrying a pistol or revolver, ...

ETA: if you do contact Cumberland, let us know what response you get (if you don't mind). thanks

 

[Knob Creek]

Could also apply for a Curios & Relics license which would add credence that you are a firearms collector.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

The phasing in 11-47-18 for AG permits is "proper showing of need". I'm not aware of any case law on what this means. The RI AG's policy is covered on page 4 of this document:

http://www.riag.ri.gov/documents/forms/pistol_instructions.pdf

What you are referring to is "proper reason" as stated in 11-47-11 for town shall-issue permits. In Mosby v. Devine 2001, the judge stated that being a gun collector was a proper reason. Page 22 of this document:

http://rifol.org/attachments/File/Mosby_vs_Devine01-161.pdf

I don't bother checking the specific wording, and so stand corrected.

Some very good points by KnuckleDragger. The problem is not the law, but that the Chief Law Enforcement Officers who refuse to follow the law themselves and issue permits to applicants to meet the requirements in RIGL 11-47-11....
Hopefully we will have case law in RI soon with regards to unconstitutional (RI) denials, and hopefully we won't have to sue every Chief in the state that doesn't want to issue. With a positive outcome of the firste case, it should make it easier for the rest of RI to exercise their rights.

I agree that it's not that difficult to get an AG permit, but it's difficult to get an unrestricted permit. Although you are entitled to all the information used to make the decision, they are still May Issue and can deny you for whatever reason. There is obviously a lot of discrimination by the AG on who gets a permit and who gets a restricted permit. I believe many in MA sued and won over a denial and hopefully we can get similar case law against the AG in RI. However, since the Chiefs are Shall Issue I think this is the first battle that should be fought.

The only want to change the chiefs' behavior is though the courts. Case law is already on your side and I believe attorney Jeffery Pine successfully applied it in Charlestown and there have been other cases as well.

My point about the AG is that they won't provide the information because they don't have it and will then have to issue the license rather than produce something they don't have. And who cares if it's restricted? That's meaningless. There's little downside to pursuing an AG permit in this manner. The application is free to submit and you only pay the $40 when they issue the license.

Could also apply for a Curios & Relics license which would add credence that you are a firearms collector.

A very good idea in this case.

 

[Masterguns]

Could also apply for a Curios & Relics license which would add credence that you are a firearms collector.

Your a curio and relic!

But your right i should get started on that and it certainly can't hurt my chances

 

[n1bsbri]

I don't bother checking the specific wording, and so stand corrected.

No disrespect intended, I know you have your hands full with the MA cases!

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

No disrespect intended, I know you have your hands full with the MA cases!

Thanks, but I do keep an eye on RI. Partly because I own property there and have an AG permit (surprisingly easy to get if you play the game right), and I'm pretty friendly with one of my counterparts there.

Rhode Island problems are very easy to fix compared to Mass. The problems are not the laws, it's the actual practice and that can be fixed with a little concerted effort. Unfortunately too many RI gun owners are complacent. Once they get a carry permit of some kind they're done. They don't have much else to worry about and drop out of sight.

 

[newportri]

Some good info there, and if like the Mosby transcript being an "avid gun collector" is a good enough reason than that's great. However 11-47-11 still makes it sound to me as if i already have to be a victim and "have a good reason to fear"

I suppose i should probably just call the PD or the chief and get their stance on it, while it doesn't look like anyone on here has gone the town route yet i'm sure plenty of other people have approached the Cumberland PD about it and i imagine they have a canned answer already.

We already know what the chief's stance is :he doesn't want to issue. If you contact him, do it in writing since his answer might come in handy later.
Ask him if he will issue you a permit if you meet all the statutory requirements.

 

[newportri]

The problem with a restricted permit even if it has no legality is that it can still cause you some problems. If a LEO stops you with a restricted permit and you are 'violating' the restriction, there is a very good chance that you will be arrested and charged with carrying a handgun without a license. I doubt anyone will be convicted, but it could still cost you a lot of money.
Try to explain a police officer in TX, who has reciprocity with RI, that the restriction has no legality..

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Try to explain a police officer in TX, who has reciprocity with RI, that the restriction has no legality..

Or Las Vegas. TX will take a LOT of non-resident permits, but the only two that are available to non-residents of this issuing state that are accepted in NV are AZ, RI and of course NV.

 

[newportri]

If you want to carry in TX you need an AG permit anyway since they only recognize permits issued by the Attorney General (in RI). I am not really sure about the reasoning why only an AG permit is recognized (11-47-18). Maybe they were not aware of 11-47-11. They supposedly received a statement from the AG saying that they do background checks on applicants (not required by law) and maybe they didn't want to contact all Chiefs in the State to get the same assurances, or they found out that many Chiefs don't issue anyway.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/legal/reciprocity/RhodeIslandproc.pdf

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I am not really sure about the reasoning why only an AG permit is recognized (11-47-18). Maybe they were not aware of 11-47-11.

I believe it has to do with the wording of the TX statute - something about a "state issued" license.