• If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

Court throws out conviction

KMaurer

KMaurer

Moderator
NES Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
8,653
Likes
349
Location
Litchfield, NH
Feedback: 2 / 0 / 0
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/141127

The Arizona court of appeals finally threw out Harold Fish's conviction for shooting the guy who threatened him. The guy blew up when Fish shot the guy's two dogs while they were attacking him. The prosecution portrayed Fish as somebody out looking to kill someone on the basis that he was carrying a 10mm, while the court refused to allow Fish to mention the "victim's" record of violent attacks on others. It's not clear whether this will derail the bill being considered in the legislature that would retroactively change the law in cases where self-defense is asserted to require the prosecution to prove that the defendants' actions weren't justified.

Ken
 
Justice served....
Click to expand...
Not yet - the case can be retried.

I'd give even odds of Fish taking a plea bargain in which he pleads guilty to some lesser form of murder in return for a deal assuring a "time served" sentence. The only reason I'm not going 10:1 is that Fish had the integrity at his sentencing to state the he acted in self defense and stood confident that he was not guilty of any criminal act. The all but inevitable plea bargain is going to a tough pill for an innocent man of character to swallow.
 
If I were Fish I'd go to trial again. NFW I'm taking a fall for a DA's convenience. The fact that a DA would talk plea bargain at all means he is weak.
 
I am reading the "Dateline" story on this from awhile back online right now. Here's the idiocy that Fish had to face, cutting from this link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15199221/page/2/

And the jury had another issue to think about: Fish’s gun.

The firearms investigator said that Fish’s gun — a 10mm — is more powerful than what police officers use and is not typically used for personal protection. And the ammunition Fish used to shoot Kuenzli three times, called “a hollow-point bullet,” is made to expand when it enters the body.

When he decided to pull the trigger, the prosecutor said, Fish should have known what the consequences would be.

Lessler: Mr. Fish knew well what a hollow-point bullet does.

Larson: And the end product of his shooting is going to be death?

Lessler: Yes.
 
Jose said:
If I were Fish I'd go to trial again. NFW I'm taking a fall for a DA's convenience. The fact that a DA would talk plea bargain at all means he is weak.
Click to expand...

Plea bargains are not done out of convenience and does not mean that a DA is weak. Everyone has a right to plead guilty.
 
If I were Fish I'd go to trial again. NFW I'm taking a fall for a DA's convenience. The fact that a DA would talk plea bargain at all means he is weak.
Click to expand...
That's easy to say when you're driving a keyboard. It's considerably tougher when you're in the visiting room of a jail, or in a an attorney's office on bail or personal recognizance and hear "You can take the plea deal, get a felony record and it's over now or, provided you can come up with a $100K initial retainer for trial, take this to trial at which there are no guarantees. You need to talk this over with your wife and and consider the impact of a trial, the very real possibility you will lose, and if you will be able to have $100K here within the week or if I should help you prepare your application to the court for a public defender."
 
Rob Boudrie said:
That's easy to say when you're driving a keyboard. It's considerably tougher when you're in the visiting room of a jail, or in a an attorney's office on bail or personal recognizance and hear "You can take the plea deal, get a felony record and it's over now or, provided you can come up with a $100K initial retainer for trial, take this to trial at which there are no guarantees. You need to talk this over with your wife and and consider the impact of a trial, the very real possibility you will lose, and if you will be able to have $100K here within the week or if I should help you prepare your application to the court for a public defender."
Click to expand...

So easy to piss your life away, no? [rolleyes]

I think I'll pass and fight.
 
jkelly said:
Ken,
Do you know the specifics of the dog attack on Mr. Fish?

Respectfully,
jkelly
Click to expand...

There's a ton of info on this on his defense website.

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

Half Cocked said:
What if that fight costs you twenty years in jail more than you would have had to spend if you took a plea?
Click to expand...

He'd avoid a felony conviction, for one.

It's a very tough call to make. While the idea of a felony conviction makes me shudder, it might look mighty appealing if I spent my days trying to avoid prison rape.

As a Monday morning quarterback, I think Fish got himself in a bad situation that he could've avoided, but all I really have to say now is he should have the best attorney he can find, no matter how much debt that incurs.
 
mark056 said:
Maybe so, but that's one of the realities of our criminal justice system. For Mr. Fish, it is not about theory or philosophy, but about what is.

Mark056
Click to expand...

Agreed. Also, I read a ton about this case yesterday. First, the justification of deadly force seems "iffy", certainly not 100% clear cut. I don't think it ever will be a slam dunk when you shoot an unarmed person, no matter whether they are "clenching their fists" or not. And that being the case, I don't think I'd take my chances with another "jury of my peers", who in the first trial believed hollow-point ammo is something crazy/dangerous/out of the ordinary.

In a perfect world with rational jurors, maybe I'd bet my freedom to save my reputation, but based on the first trial, I think I'd take a plea, considering all the circumstances of the case as I know it.
 
JohnM said:
Agreed. Also, I read a ton about this case yesterday. First, the justification of deadly force seems "iffy", certainly not 100% clear cut. I don't think it ever will be a slam dunk when you shoot an unarmed person, no matter whether they are "clenching their fists" or not.
Click to expand...

I knew there was something that bothered me about this case (besides the DA's theatrics with the 10 mm) but I couldn't remember what it was. That was it. It was the unarmed guy on the other side. But it sounds like his dogs could be argued were deadly weapons and his history clearly illustrates this guy was dangerous. I am glad he will get a shot at a fair retrial.
 
terraformer said:
I knew there was something that bothered me about this case (besides the DA's theatrics with the 10 mm) but I couldn't remember what it was. That was it. It was the unarmed guy on the other side. But it sounds like his dogs could be argued were deadly weapons and his history clearly illustrates this guy was dangerous. I am glad he will get a shot at a fair retrial.
Click to expand...

As for the dogs, from what I read, he fired a warning shot at the dogs, and the dogs retreated and the shooter was telling the other guy "I didn't shoot your dogs", so I don't even think the shooter was claiming his life was in danger due to the dogs- BUT

I'm not judging the guys innocence or guilt, I'm just saying that given how prejudiced and ignorant the jurors were in the first trial in terms of not knowing what a 10mm was, what hollow point ammo is, why he didn't shoot the person in the "hand or foot", etc., I don't think I would TRUST THE NEW JURORS to be any smarter than the first set of jurors.

Given the likelihood of another set of irrational jurors, given that the person killed was unarmed, if I were this guy and I were offered a plea to do NO TIME, I'm pretty sure I would take it.

Now, we can go into hypotheticals not involving this particular case and I might choose differently, for example, if it was an obvious case of justifiable use of deadly force- the other guy has a knife or baseball bat, maybe I'd risk my freedom to save my reputation, but not if I, myself, had doubts about whether I did the right thing.
 
JohnM said:
As for the dogs, from what I read, he fired a warning shot at the dogs, and the dogs retreated and the shooter was telling the other guy "I didn't shoot your dogs", so I don't even think the shooter was claiming his life was in danger due to the dogs- BUT
Click to expand...

That's what I didn't like, the "warning shot." If he felt in danger from the dogs, he should have drawn his gun, if they put him in immediate, inescapable danger, he should have shot them, but warning shots on the in between only escalated the situation IMO.
 
terraformer said:
That strikes me as extortion....
Click to expand...

How so?.......Many pleas are initiated by the defense. They know that if they go to trial and lose that they will get a harsh sentence so they choose to plea to a lesser sentence.

It is called negotiatiating in the interest of justice.
 
Half Cocked said:
How so?.......Many pleas are initiated by the defense. They know that if they go to trial and lose that they will get a harsh sentence so they choose to plea to a lesser sentence.

It is called negotiatiating in the interest of justice.
Click to expand...

When the prosecutions budget is limitless compared to the amount an individual can spend, it seems to me that an innocent man could see this as extortion.
 
terraformer said:
When the prosecutions budget is limitless compared to the amount an individual can spend, it seems to me that an innocent man could see this as extortion.
Click to expand...

Agreed, you're playing on their terms, and if you get a prosecutor with an agenda (apropos Nifong), you can easily get hosed.
 

Similar threads

Nevada Supreme Court Upholds Ban on So-Called ‘Ghost Guns’
Replies
4
Views
182
Dennis in MA
Dennis in MA
Tyrant NY judge says Second Amendment doesn't exist in her court room
Replies
16
Views
241
Uzi2
U
Seattle PD taking out the trash
Replies
22
Views
606
MGnoob
MGnoob
Pennsylvania Court Upholds Right of Young People to Carry Guns in Public
Replies
6
Views
206
Coyote33
Coyote33
House Republicans sell us out
2 3 4
Replies
114
Views
3K
EJFudd
EJFudd
Back
Top Bottom