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Cops in a shootout - help? Not help?
- Thread starter alx
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You and I both live in a state (SC) where if one intervenes with deadly force on behalf of another, that other person must have a perfect right to self defense, meaning that they neither initiated the conflict or did anything to escalate it. Our state is one of many that seizes property without due process (forfeitures) and criminalizes the exercise of a fundamental right without getting prior permission (permitting process). We have no way of knowing who started or escalated or why.
I genuinely wish we lived in a different world but it is wiser to deal with the reality of the world around us. This in a world where LEO can quite legally (and IMHO properly) both initiate and escalate force in many circumstances, but not so in many others.
Many years ago I was driving on I-93 SB and had just thrown my two quarters in the basket at the Hooksett tollbooth and was pulling away when I heard a commotion to my left. Two lanes away I saw a uniformed State Trooper barking commands from behind a stopped vehicle in the NB lane with his pistol aimed slightly downward at the car. Out of the corner of my eye I saw a rather scruffy guy in front of the vehicle with a shotgun leveled towards the rear where the Trooper stood. From the position of the shotgun, any shot fired would have cleared the roof of the car. The Trooper was clearly in imminent peril! I reached and my hand grasped the butt, but something wasn't right. The Trooper could not have failed to see the shotgun pointed at him from about thirty feet (this before I knew about adrenaline and tunnel vision). That was enough to make me hesitate. Then the shotgun was lowered to where it was now pointed at the driver.
Yup. UC Trooper going to a scheduled buy with perp in the vehicle behind him and the plan all along was UC blocks the lane at the tollbooth to contain the scene for springing their ambush.
I dodged a bullet or twelve that day by reading body language and so did the Trooper. A different decision and it is overwhelmingly probable that neither of us would be here and I'd have some explaining to do on my Judgment Day and that would be at the top of a list that's already long enough.
My foot hit the gas, my gun never left the holster and I got a lot wiser that day. Looking in the eyes of a son or a mirror, I hope and pray that I never have to know that what I did - or failed to do - was wrong, but my first instict would be to stay out of it. If ever in a similar situation, I hope I do the right thing.
csobrien
NES Member
Colorado good 'Samaritan' who killed gunman fatally shot by cop while holding suspect’s rifle, police say
The “good Samaritan” who fatally shot a gunman following an attack that left a Colorado police officer dead was himself killed by an officer responding to the chaotic scene, investigators said Friday.www.foxnews.com
Guy is way outgunned, makes the decision to take on the AR-weilding assailant with his pistol and wins, does the next right move which is to secure the weapon (especially in case of multiple assailants) and gets shot for his troubles. Absolutely brutal.
safetyfirst2125
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Cops conditioned to show up and shoot anything that isn’t in a uniform with a gun I guess.
AHM
NES Member
Puh-leese Dept.
Kick it out of the reach of the perp without touching it.
Or do you want to be getting the rubber hose treatment in the precinct basement
if the boys down in Forensics pull your prints off of it?
MaxStravinsky
NES Member
When I was very young my answer would have been 'of course I'd jump in and help'. Many years later, with everything I've seen in life, I think it would be best to just get away as fast as I could.
namedpipes
NES Member
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
tuna
NES Member
When I first joined the military at the age of 17, my head was full of fantasies about being John Wayne and firing a .50 from the hip, ridding the world of Communism (that was the bad guy then).
My attitude was completely different 25 years later on my last deployment to Afghanistan. The Air Force, to save money, made small arms qualification an "as needed" training, so I was the only one qualifying that day. The M9 training is geared to cops, and there was a lot of info about use of force and the pyramid from verbal commands to batons to actual use of force. I interrupted to tell him that I knew he had to give this training, but I was Intel - not Security Forces; if I was shooting it was because I was either shooting back, or I was joining in and shooting in the direction everyone else was, but I doubted I was going to be arresting anyone. The guy took it well and we blasted through the rest of the classwork in 5 minutes.
My attitude toward helping is the same. I'm not going to go looking for trouble or run to the sound of guns anymore. I live in a small town, if I'm pretty sure the cop would recognize me as a good guy, I'd help, but more likely I'm beating feet and getting my family out of the way.
Back to my training story, just because I like this story, we were at the range and the instructor offered to replace my old full flap Bianchi holster for one of the more high speed ones that everyone had. I said no way, I was keeping the old thing, when asked why - since I'd be able to draw faster with the new holster, I let the guy know that:
1) I doubted I'd get to be the first Intel guy to have a quick draw pistol fight
2) The full flap protects from dust, dirt, coffee and debris better - which is more a concern than terrorists to me
3) I'd have to follow Army, not Air Force rules on arming, which meant an empty chamber and safety on - which can be checked easy with the new holster, not so much with my old full flap - I may draw slower, but I'd be drawing a hot pistol - not one in condition 3
Sometimes us old guys like the old stuff for actual reasons, it pays to figure out our thinking sometimes.
Mark from MA
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This. Lately......someone intervening to help becomes the next Kyle Rittenhouse. Especially in MA. I'm not anti cop, but the media and our society can turn on you on a dime and MADE THAT DECISION FOR ME. Its sad, but the reality. 20 years ago.....I would not have said the same thing.
Shit, I personally know two cops that have retired well early of their planned retirement because they didn't want lose everything they worked for on some bad call. What's a civilian
think they have coming to them if they F up.....alot worse than a cop!
The safety and financial risks of being in such a situation are way too high. I'm not getting detail overtime, pension, or legal coverage from the town or state, to place risks on my and my families future.
In some other Free state like Texas or Florida that would more welcome it.....maybe. Here....NFW.....I'm absolutely certain that Maura Healy does not have my back. So if anyone is to blame for people not wanting to help, blame Politicians and the media.
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Mark from MA
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Everytime I hear....we just want everyone to get home safe! After someones rights have been violated by police. This is the attitude I have as well.
bigbravehog
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exactly. If you want your family protected, get your own license.
bigbravehog
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if you get involved, chances are you won't live at all.
pastera
NES Member
Best way to win a gun fight is not to be in one.
As far as I know there aren't any laws on the books protecting a person who helps out the police - if do get involved who pays your bills when the perp or family drops a civil suit on your head?
It's a no win situation - even in a perfectly clean shot situation you are still losing your gun to evidence and many days of your life in court as a witness.
As far as I know there aren't any laws on the books protecting a person who helps out the police - if do get involved who pays your bills when the perp or family drops a civil suit on your head?
It's a no win situation - even in a perfectly clean shot situation you are still losing your gun to evidence and many days of your life in court as a witness.
bigbravehog
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he could have slammed his car into the door of the shooter
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Looks like neither the perp nor the cop were hit, at what looks like very close range and many rounds fired. Killing or paralyzing the bad guy would weigh heavy.
Emotionally and financially...
Now, if coming onto a scene where the cop is down, wounded and now unarmed and a bad guy hovering over him/her preparing a coup de grace... I'm not sure I could stop myself
from "doing nothing."
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I like the first comment "That dude placed the car in reverse, drove it all the way back to his house, then walked in reverse up the stairs to his bedroom and went to bed like the day never happened."
Seriously, I don't think it's a hard concept. If you're going to get involved, let it be because you had to, i.e. you didn't have any other choice vis-a-vis the principles of self-defense and defense-of-others. Don't let it be because you wanted to "help", like you're some non-deputized deputy wannabe.
Lol and possibly gotten accidentally shot by the cop in the process etc... no thanks.
Not to mention NOBODY is going to pay for your f***ed up car, either. You're going to end up on the hook for that shit one way or another.
bigbravehog
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true - I wouldn't have done it either, but if someone was crazy enough, would have been awesome to see
There are WAY too many ways for this to go wrong .....
