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Cops in a shootout - help? Not help?

mac1911

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Been thinking. Fictitious scenario:

You happen to be in a place when a police- involved shooting breaks out. It appears the cop is alone and engaged with a perp(?) who might or might not have a tactical advantage. You have a clear drop on the "bad" guy. Your intervention could save cop's life. For simplicity lets assume the situation is such that collateral damage is very very unlikely.

Do you engage? Do you look/ run the other way? Do you pull your phone and call 911 and/ or start recording?

I know there is no right or wrong answer here, but what would _YOU_ do?
Call for back up
 

SERE

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Reminds me of that situation in White Mountains NH (around 2006?) involving Bodie Miller’s cousin. Chronically-drunk cousin goes on road-rage, kills local police officer. Retired Marine bystander gabs sidearm from deceased P.O. Shoots, but wounds, raging cousin.

Lol, Floyd actually shot and killed Liko Kenney after Kenney killed McKay (the LEO). There's actually a thread where there was a huge dust up on the forum about it back when it happened. I had to lock it because one of likos family members came on the forum and was raging.

Also said retired marine (Floyd) was a prohibited person. The NH AG at the time was Kelly Ayotte and she didn't prosecute Floyd via "doctrine of competing harms".

Unless you know the exact situation, are yourself in danger, or other clearly innocent people are in danger, it’s a tough sell. You won’t get paid like the cop nor be granted the legal privileges of the cop.




That’s not at all what happened.


It was a media shit show:



More about the history at the link.

JUNE 26, 2007

It lasts all of six or seven seconds — the driver reaching out as if to wave someone away, the police officer striding up, releasing a cloud of pepper spray through car's open window, and the driver reaching out again, this time firing a handgun.

Video taken from Franconia Police Cpl. Bruce McKay's cruiser shows the May 11 confrontation that led to his death and that of the driver he had just stopped, Liko Kenney, a cousin of ski champion Bode Miller. Authorities released it Monday, along with photographs and about 1,000 pages of transcribed statements from witnesses of the May 11 shootings.

A passing motorist trying to protect McKay picked up the gun and killed the driver moments later, but that shooting was not captured on tape.

The video for the first time shows at least part of the incident that has torn the community of Franconia apart, with Kenney supporters describing McKay as a bully cop who was rough with young people and others praising McKay as a fallen hero. The killings — McKay by Kenney, and Kenney by Gregory W. Floyd — have been described by some in town as vigilante justice.

The tape from McKay's cruiser (video)
shows how the sunny day on a country road went wrong.
It starts with the first of two traffic stops on Route 116. McKay pulls over a small car for speeding and having an expired registration. Two heads are visible through the car's rear window. The driver appears to be talking to the officer. Two minutes later the coupe pulls away, followed quickly by McKay's police sport utility vehicle.

About 1.5 miles down the road, McKay overtakes Kenney, crossing the double yellow line, backing up and turning several times until the cars are nose to nose. Kenney reaches out and points, as if asking McKay to back up. A pickup truck behind them has stopped in the road. Kenney backs into a dirt driveway, but McKay doesn't stop. He drives the SUV into the coupe, bumping and pushing it into a gravel parking area backed by farm equipment and fields. Kenney's hands are up now, and the video, mostly silent, blares suddenly with the sound of a siren.

The rest happens quickly. Kenney leans his head and arm out of the window and waves. McKay steps into view in his blue uniform and sunglasses and walks toward the faded blue coupe. He sprays, turns his back and walks out of view of the camera. Kenney leans out again, gun in hand, and rapidly squeezes out seven bullets, hitting McKay four times.

Kenney tries to leave. He drives over McKay's body twice, but doesn't get far. He is shot dead moments later by Floyd, an ex-Marine who picked up McKay's gun.

In a summary report, prosecutors said McKay, 48, was justified in using non-deadly force on Kenney, 24, partly because of a violent confrontation between the two men four years earlier. The attorney general also said Floyd was justified in shooting Kenney as he tried to protect McKay.

"All of the actions by Corporal McKay constituted a reasonable use of nondeadly physical force by a law enforcement officer," the report said.
 

not new guy

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Hypothetical situation. You’re attending your estranged wife’s company Christmas party when a group of German terrorists seize control of the tower. All you have is a Beretta. You have no shoes on. Do you engage the terrorists and assist with the law enforcement response or do you head straight to the garage to your idling limo and leave the bitch and her douchey coworkers to deal with it themselves?
 

Mesatchornug

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Hypothetical situation. You’re attending your estranged wife’s company Christmas party when a group of German terrorists seize control of the tower. All you have is a Beretta. You have no shoes on. Do you engage the terrorists and assist with the law enforcement response or do you head straight to the garage to your idling limo and leave the bitch and her douchey coworkers to deal with it themselves?
how close is the nearest machine gun, HO HO HO?
 
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Been thinking. Fictitious scenario:

You happen to be in a place when a police- involved shooting breaks out. It appears the cop is alone and engaged with a perp(?) who might or might not have a tactical advantage. You have a clear drop on the "bad" guy. Your intervention could save cop's life. For simplicity lets assume the situation is such that collateral damage is very very unlikely.

Do you engage? Do you look/ run the other way? Do you pull your phone and call 911 and/ or start recording?

I know there is no right or wrong answer here, but what would _YOU_ do?
The "armed person" running towards to the attacker near you could be a federal agent, off duty local or state cop or even an out of state cop carrying under LEOSA. You just dont know. A vacationing Ohio police officer wearing her athletic shirt, capris, running shoes and baseball cap while jogging down the Esplanade in Boston will draw much attention, even if armed.
 

LuvDog

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Hypothetical situation. You’re attending your estranged wife’s company Christmas party when a group of German terrorists seize control of the tower. All you have is a Beretta. You have no shoes on. Do you engage the terrorists and assist with the law enforcement response or do you head straight to the garage to your idling limo and leave the bitch and her douchey coworkers to deal with it themselves?

You ditch the ex and go find that blonde (cheryl baker) who was having sex in the office during the party
 

Picton

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Hypothetical situation. You’re attending your estranged wife’s company Christmas party when a group of German terrorists seize control of the tower. All you have is a Beretta. You have no shoes on. Do you engage the terrorists and assist with the law enforcement response or do you head straight to the garage to your idling limo and leave the bitch and her douchey coworkers to deal with it themselves?

Find Ellis, hit the bathroom sink, generate some white lines, and take a break from the world for awhile. Because Ellis? Bubby? He's your white knight!
 

not new guy

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Been thinking. Fictitious scenario:

You’re a successful architect living in the city. A gang of thugs murder your wife and rape your daughter, leaving her in a catatonic state. You have a Colt Police Positive in .32. Do you go on a vigilante rampage and try to clean up the city yourself or do you just move to a different city that isn’t such a shithole?
 

Picton

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Been thinking. Fictitious scenario:

You’re a successful architect living in the city. A gang of thugs murder your wife and rape your daughter, leaving her in a catatonic state. You have a Colt Police Positive in .32. Do you go on a vigilante rampage and try to clean up the city yourself or do you just move to a different city that isn’t such a shithole?
I dunno.

But whatever you do, you grow a kick-ass mustache first.
 

GM-GUY

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I’m leaving - I’ll call 911 and let them know where, but that’s it.

Far too many good guys getting arrested and Antifa/Burn, Loot & Murder given a pass. The ones that do get arrested get broomed at court.

With that said - they can have a good one. I may assist a townie IF I can engage and leave before any other units respond - and I’ll never say a word.
 

Junior314

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Lol. No.

Good luck not getting shot by the storm of officers he most likely called over the radio.

Good luck not getting in the way.

Good luck having them want you to “help”

Good luck actually being helpful.

For some cringe watch this video. This is probably best case (cop yells at you). Worst case you are dead View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-MRV230C44M

That video is cringe. Blizerian is a tool bag and knew he had a camera on him when he said it. No sane person thinks a cop is going to hand over a gun in the middle of what was going on there at the time.

As for the hypothetical situation.... no I’m not helping I’m getting as far away as quickly as possible.

If a cop was getting his ass beat I would help just like I would anyone else. Admittedly probably not the smartest thing to do. I remember vividly being in Boston with my uncle (retired FD, active at the time) when a Boston cop was getting the shit kicked out of him by two guys and my uncle stepped in and assisted with the arrest. I’m as skeptical about police as it comes but if I saw one getting beat down I would do what I can to help.
 

AllaSnackbah

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Aren't you the dude with NVG's and all sorts of tactical gear? I mean, the one in a hundred million odds you'd ever need that, I can't imagine how you're living your life! 🤣

Pretty sure a hypothetical on a forum doesn't mean everyone who asks or responds is living their lives in fear of that exact hypothetical scenario. But I suppose you never know.

I use it both recreationally and professionally though?
 

ridleyman

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I would definitely take the shot. And then when I'm interviewed by the press I'll point out that this is yet another example of why law abiding folks need to have guns with them, not locked up at the gun club like some idiots would propose.
 

not new guy

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I would definitely take the shot. And then when I'm interviewed by the press I'll point out that this is yet another example of why law abiding folks need to have guns with them, not locked up at the gun club like some idiots would propose.

"In jailhouse interview, gun-obsessed Massachusetts man argues that children's lives are less important than his gun fetish. News at 11." [smile]
 

bigbravehog

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It was my understanding you could intervene if someone else was reasonably likely to suffer grievous bodily harm and/or death (and was legally entitled to be where they were).
with 351 towns/cities in MA and 351 different interpretations of the law, I'll still say no.
 

bigbravehog

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Yet again, misstatement of fact. Keep posting it, I'll keep saying it.
 
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with 351 towns/cities in MA and 351 different interpretations of the law, I'll still say no.
You can certainly say "no," I was just pointing out that the laws do not "make it impossible" to assist someone as you stated. There's codified defenses for assisting another person.

Ill-advised--maybe, risky--for sure. But not impossible.
 

greencobra

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nope. if i wanted that excitement i would have joined the force. and when did the civilians motto become "to protect and serve?" and wondering if i were killed, would i be a hero and have my funeral services televised? would the state pay the expenses? or would my estate be sued for discharge of a firearm, brandishing and a host of other posthumous charges in one of massachusetts' patented that will teach 'em legal moves.
 
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Been thinking. Fictitious scenario:

You’re a successful architect living in the city. A gang of thugs murder your wife and rape your daughter, leaving her in a catatonic state. You have a Colt Police Positive in .32. Do you go on a vigilante rampage and try to clean up the city yourself or do you just move to a different city that isn’t such a shithole?
I think that was Jeff Goldblum's first film....at the very least it was extremely early in his career.
 

GaryO

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As messed up as MA is I almost choked on my coffee reading an op ed in the Herald this morning, JOYCE FERRIABOUGH BOLLING( who is no friend of freedom) referred to the guy who discharged his firearm to stop a crime as a "hero". Normally that sort of stuff is frowned upon in the Commonwealth by the beautiful people.

"At a time when we’re finally able to visit our beautiful parks for much-needed nature therapy, Franklin Park is starting to look like a hot spot for trouble instead of the haven it is meant to be. On Monday, an onlooker became a hero when he intervened in an assault on a woman. Licensed to carry a weapon, the Good Samaritan fired a warning shot, disrupting the attack."
 
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