Comparing Smiths

Than what metric do you judge a custom gunsmith by outside of engraving?

Because hand fitting can be done by anyone with practice.
Same as trigger work and just about anything else outside of hand engraving.

Flat out due to cnc technology.
Because it does maybe about 70%-80% of what real gunsmith did before they showed up I n the market.

It's the same way colts snake series of revolvers were way better before cnc's took over.

It's completely realistic. It's just people will have to wait because of low production cycles.

And people nowadays are infinatly more impatient than previous years.

Honestly, even though it is semi mass production, the laugo alien is the only pistol I'd call custom.
 
The difference between a gunsmith and a machinist is the why. Both can do the work, the gunsmith knows the why behind it. Why a slide needs to be lightened and where, why one comp works better than another with that amount of slide lightening and what springs are needed. There are a shit ton of machinist that work on guns.
 
i think people like greg do not do it for time and costs alone, as there are much easier ways to make money than making art.
dunno, any non-mass serialized labor here becomes so rare, it is difficult to talk about it. and as soon as any work becomes mass-serialized, it gets outsourced out to a cheaper labor market.
He still buys parts.
 
But make their ejector, extractor, sear, hammer, barrel, trigger, trigger guard, etc.? The time and cost would be prohibitive.
doesn’t infinity/SVI make all of their parts in house?
Also why they start at like $6000
 
That’s not realistic. No gunsmith has the time and engineering to design a new type of action. No gunsmith has time, money, or equipment to forge their own receivers. Can they take a receiver (like a Remington 700 clone or a Caspian 1911 lower) and build a custom gun from that, using carefully chosen parts? Sure. But make their ejector, extractor, sear, hammer, barrel, trigger, trigger guard, etc.? The time and cost would be prohibitive.
The small parts is not so much time as capital intensive. Once you have the right equipment, the time is not excessive. Ditto for receivers, frames and slides. I've seen every part of a 1911 being made from raw stock at Infinity - even the grip screws. All under strict K9 supervision.

There are three types of frames you will get from custom builders: 3rd party frames that bear the name of the actual manufacturer (often Caspian); Third party that bear the name of the builder and not the actual manufacturer the part was subbed out to (this requires a BATFE variance), and actually built by the shop has its name on the gun. You can't tell the difference between the last two by looking at the gun. Just because a small operation has its name of the frame does not mean it actually built it, just that it is trying to look big.

There are several types of frame manuifacturing technologies - forged, machined from bar stock w/heat treating and cast. S&W does a lot of forging (with some rather old drop forges), but many of the high end places use machined from bar stock. "High end place that uses MIM parts in their build" is an oxymoron.
 
So why? Do you have or have you handled any of his work? How would you compare it against other gunsmiths and why? I will certainly agree his work and marketing seem good. But... I've never handled his work.
I have a Derr piece and it's stunning. I started with a new Series 70 Colt and picked all my parts, substituting a few of his recommendations. He consults and works with you every step of the way. The final fit and finish and attention to detail is next level.
 
My 2 cents,
They won't count anywhere,because I'm still a newbie.

But I'm disappointed in the custom gun market.

It's essentially flooded with variations 1911/2011's.

I'm not counting glocks because it's the same as 2011.

Sig,beretta,arex have a good idea of a semi exchangeable fire control group, but its still all premanufactured parts assembly.
Same systems being recycled in and out.

In the beginning shops like wilson,langdon,nighthawk etc would all be "custom" boutique type of places. My opinion is they have advanced from that to mass market manufacturers.

In my eyes a custom gunsmith could make a gun fr the ground up.
With one off designs and not replicate something that already exists.

That's not to take away from custom shops that put there special sauce/twang on it.

Engraving can fully be an art by itself.

Um... I agree the market is flooded with 1911s, but that doesn't mean other things can't be done. I've had some pretty great work done on revolvers, Beretta 92s, Sigs, etc... Actually that is a part of the reason I started the post. I think the non-1911 work is really interesting.
 
That’s not realistic. No gunsmith has the time and engineering to design a new type of action. No gunsmith has time, money, or equipment to forge their own receivers. Can they take a receiver (like a Remington 700 clone or a Caspian 1911 lower) and build a custom gun from that, using carefully chosen parts? Sure. But make their ejector, extractor, sear, hammer, barrel, trigger, trigger guard, etc.? The time and cost would be prohibitive.

Interesting observation. I agree gunsmiths aren't going to produce a new action. Although... I think we could be getting much closer to this. Also, remember you can make your own forged 1911 frame at home these days if I recall. The parts cost serious coin, but exist.
 
Interesting observation. I agree gunsmiths aren't going to produce a new action. Although... I think we could be getting much closer to this. Also, remember you can make your own forged 1911 frame at home these days if I recall. The parts cost serious coin, but exist.

I don't think people are forging frames at home


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF-Gp7-zCgY
 
Interesting observation. I agree gunsmiths aren't going to produce a new action. Although... I think we could be getting much closer to this. Also, remember you can make your own forged 1911 frame at home these days if I recall. The parts cost serious coin, but exist.

More-Proprietary parts and actions are dumb unless you can get a lot of spares. The #1 reason why.... say your gunsmith retires or (god forbid) passes on. Nobody else will touch that stuff and it will get treated like a barrel of AIDS.

Entire product lines of guns have been destined to be failures because someone got "too cute" on the engineering side. (Springifeld Omega, etc. and a whole bunch of other guns which
are basically one big failure away from being unrepairable. )

There is being innovative, being a master of a craft etc, but when someone starts getting "too cute" then the thing you end up with is a paperweight/time bomb.
 
This is a good thread I'm sorry I am late to the conversation. Choosing a gunsmith is like choosing a mechanic. Is this person listening to you? Are they giving you honest options or just upselling. There are armorers and gunsmiths. A good gunsmith should not only provide skilled work but support for his work. The custom gunsmith is able to choose a variety of parts to fit the need of the client. Large makers will only choose their parts, like Wilson, Brown and Nighthawk- all good builders but not prone to using others parts. Our clients are looking for both the heirloom gun or the hard use door knocker. Both get the same level of attention and detail, it just might be the finish that is different, one is a hammer the other a chisel kind of thing. We shoot them all and tune them to the last. The other part of this is the client. If a client does not do his part in cleaning and maintaining, then failures can occur- no problem we don't shame clients but rather educate them and correct the issue if there is one. There are some great off the shelf guns that are Mass legal too. I've been impressed with Atlas as well as Nighthawk. For the custom 1911 it's Colt. The Browning HiPower is also a great platform as well as Smith revolvers. Custom pistols are still a bargain, take a look at a custom rifle or shotgun which can be 50K or more.
 
This is a good thread I'm sorry I am late to the conversation. Choosing a gunsmith is like choosing a mechanic. Is this person listening to you? Are they giving you honest options or just upselling. There are armorers and gunsmiths. A good gunsmith should not only provide skilled work but support for his work. The custom gunsmith is able to choose a variety of parts to fit the need of the client. Large makers will only choose their parts, like Wilson, Brown and Nighthawk- all good builders but not prone to using others parts. Our clients are looking for both the heirloom gun or the hard use door knocker. Both get the same level of attention and detail, it just might be the finish that is different, one is a hammer the other a chisel kind of thing. We shoot them all and tune them to the last. The other part of this is the client. If a client does not do his part in cleaning and maintaining, then failures can occur- no problem we don't shame clients but rather educate them and correct the issue if there is one. There are some great off the shelf guns that are Mass legal too. I've been impressed with Atlas as well as Nighthawk. For the custom 1911 it's Colt. The Browning HiPower is also a great platform as well as Smith revolvers. Custom pistols are still a bargain, take a look at a custom rifle or shotgun which can be 50K or more.
Yeah, that CZ 82 you got back together and cerakote is still rocking 10+ years later. Even had a few hick ups that where resolved with out hesitation , thank you.
I dont require much gun smithing but when I do its Derr.

The custom target sights on the 10/22 is great also
 
This is a good thread I'm sorry I am late to the conversation. Choosing a gunsmith is like choosing a mechanic. Is this person listening to you? Are they giving you honest options or just upselling. There are armorers and gunsmiths. A good gunsmith should not only provide skilled work but support for his work. The custom gunsmith is able to choose a variety of parts to fit the need of the client. Large makers will only choose their parts, like Wilson, Brown and Nighthawk- all good builders but not prone to using others parts. Our clients are looking for both the heirloom gun or the hard use door knocker. Both get the same level of attention and detail, it just might be the finish that is different, one is a hammer the other a chisel kind of thing. We shoot them all and tune them to the last. The other part of this is the client. If a client does not do his part in cleaning and maintaining, then failures can occur- no problem we don't shame clients but rather educate them and correct the issue if there is one. There are some great off the shelf guns that are Mass legal too. I've been impressed with Atlas as well as Nighthawk. For the custom 1911 it's Colt. The Browning HiPower is also a great platform as well as Smith revolvers. Custom pistols are still a bargain, take a look at a custom rifle or shotgun which can be 50K or more.

Thank you. I didn't consider varied part selection when working through it in mind and it seems like a really interesting way of thought. Nighthawk goes out of their way to mention that every part is made in house.

To pull on the thread a little further, do you think the American Pistolsmith Guild should consider this metric when evaluating submissions? I understand if this thread is a little too far. I'm curious because it seems like consistency across various part selection is an added difficulty.
 
At the APG we base admission on the Pistolsmiths quality of work, fit and finish as well as the individual’s contributions to the trade.
 
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