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Communist China/Hong Kong cave to protesters

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by jpk, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. enbloc

    enbloc NES Life Member NES Member

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    If they get the 2nd Amendment, they should move it up to No. 1.
    Why?
    Because your Gun gives you the ability to protect All Your Rights...

    [​IMG]

    And if they come for your gun.
    I say "Let 'em have it"...

    [​IMG]
     

  2. T-Unit

    T-Unit

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    How far that little candle throws his beams! Hong Kong shows the determination and bravery it takes to become that "shining city on a hill", while America looks to cure loneliness with a pill.

    I'm proud of the people of Hong Kong, they give me hope not all is lost, that liberty is worth sacrificing everything for. The resistance the people of Hong Kong are putting up with no modern weapons against the superpower of China is awe inspiring. What I'm seeing in Hong Kong is what America use to be, how American came to be, by being defiant and strong.

    I've noticed how places in Asia like Hong Kong can be so united, I attribute it to them not being so diverse like all majority European nations are obsessed with becoming. There's no identity politics in Hong Kong, you're just either for liberty and freedom or you support communism and China.

    America use to be proud, smart, strong, young, thin, and defiant, but now America is scared, stupid, old, fat, weak, and obedient.

    Hong Kong is more my people than America is, they are the dreamers of dreams.

    So shines a good dead in a weary world.
     
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  3. drgrant

    drgrant Moderator NES Member

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    This, the worst thing the protesters could do is overplay their hand too much at once, and get smoked out and exterminated.

    -Mike
     
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  4. T-Unit

    T-Unit

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    This isn't Tienanmen in '89, the people in Hong Kong learn from history, they have social media today, this is an entire city of 7 million people resisting, not a hundred thousand that was basically doing an Occupy Beijing approach.

    Rolling tanks down the streets of Hong Kong doesn't have the same affect it did in Tienanmen, the people will just disperse, go home, and come back the next day. This isn't a protest held in Beijing, this is a full fledged rebellion happening in a city that is located partly on an island far from the stronghold of the Communist party. It's not as difficult to smuggle weapons, food, supplies to the people in Hong Kong like it was in Beijing 30 years ago.

    The only way China wipes all of them out is using WMD's and if they do that, I don't think the international community is going to stand idly by and watch 7 million people be snuffed out in the blink of an eye.

    Then again, those nations that could do something to retaliate are run by Europeans obsessed with not looking racist and avoiding war.

    All I hope is that people in the CIA are smuggling arms and ammo by the thousands to the people in Hong Kong. China needs a quagmire to get the people on the mainland to start raising up.
     
  5. new guy

    new guy NES Member

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    Hong Kong is China’s. All this ends when China decides it does. No country on earth is stupid enough to get between HK and China if push comes to shove. I hope we stay way out of it.
     
  6. Tinkermatic

    Tinkermatic NES Member

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    I watched a fascinating video on some of the protesters tactics. They never stay in one place for very long meaning that police often show up to an empty street. They use human chains(sometimes a mile long)and hand signals to get supplies to the front lines when there is conflict. Those with gas masks snuff out tear gas with parking cones and water before they ever really get going. They never block ambulances.
    The organization they achieve without using e-mail or certain mainstream social media is remarkable.
     
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  7. Waher

    Waher NES Member

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  8. Dench

    Dench

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    Historically Asians tolerate draconian nightmare governments a lot better than the West.

    Is China a Communist state? Not really. More like some sort of bizzaro world Socialist Plutocracy. The trick is only a few people hold the keys. And the people who hold the keys don't appear to be players in the plutocracy. The bossmen have zero issue with making public examples out of their LTs on the ground, the CEO's of the large Chinese companies, when they step out of line. Usually via corruption.

    The system they have is pretty impressive from the outside looking in. And how it actually works is nothing short of the people living there being so used to being under the boot of the PRC that whats going on now is literally a paradise compared to the pre 1990's hell hole China was for its entire existence.

    With all the crazy shit like social credit scores, cameras on literally every f***ing spot possible out in the far West, reeducation camps, etc, they are running a tight ship. The problem is they are destabilizing other economies due to the socialists approach to the economy with a splash of communist intervention. If youre a Chinese merchant you can ship things to the US cheaper than I can ship things to the US. And some say I live in the US, so thats not exactly cool. Reason being the PRC will pay the shipping fee so their merchants can compete with western in house businesses on their own turf. Basically Western business at this point is competing with the PRC .gov, not quasi private PRC businesses. This is pretty problematic and needs to be addressed as it serves the US no mid to long term benefit. Having cheap Chinese made garbage is super cool in the short term. Melting our economy down to a puddle of shit while the Chairman Mao foots the shipping is no beuno as the latinos say.

    As for HK, I blame the british and the Western community as a whole. NATO and crew (well the countries in NATO, not NATO) should of told China "hey, f*** you, cant have HK and Macau back, K?" And the PRC would of flipped out but not done shit about it. Giving HK back was a massive mistake. And the writing was on the wall during negotiations starting int he 80's on the end of party town HK. Macua toed the line like good Asians looking for their next totalitarian nightmare to live under and have mostly (ok, nearly fully) kissed the PRC ring. HK has been all hot and bothered about it and its over already. The f***ing HK police own that place. The PLA land forces need not apply, the police can handle it until it completely implodes. And sadly HK born "leadership" are mostly on board with the PRCs dreams of being human buzzkills.

    When Portugal was like "hey, dear Western allies, you people have a problem with me holding onto macau" everyone was like "where the f*** is Portugal? who are you again? wtf is Macau? wat?" and that was the end of that.

    Leave it to the UK to give up another Overseas Territory for it to go to shit.



    The only silver lining is at the end of the day the PRC military blows. It has zero combat experience. Zero power projection. Poor to zero logistical support outside its own borders. the PRC can't go to war if the wars not in China or on the border. And if they go to war with anyone with half a clue its going to be a hard time for them.
     
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  9. Uzi2

    Uzi2 NES Member

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    You don't have to have a great military when you can put a soldier in every ten square inches of ground.....fifty times over.

    They have twice as many "MEN fit for service"than we have entire population in the United States.......hello? If they want Hong Cong, they will Take Hong Cong and nobody is going to stop them.

    Do a search "estimated Chinese troops", you'll be amazed at China's strength in all areas, most ranking 2nd or 3rd of 137 countries.

    China is nothing to overlook or underestimate in terms of military power. Their sheer numbers would exhaust just about every country on the planet, even several combined forces.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  10. headednorth

    headednorth NES Member

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  11. T-Unit

    T-Unit

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    I was listening to radio last night and they were talking about Hong Kong. One said that they don't believe we're going to see another Tienanmen because the soldiers who will be sent to Hong Kong are not those of 30 years ago, it's a new generation that's not interested in going to the levels of violence seen then.

    Also, at that time there was no internet, a massacre could take place and few beyond those there would know. Today a tussle in the airport is viewed by billions of people in seconds.

    I think we're overestimating the resolve of the Chinese here, they didn't expect the uprising to be this severe and have this much of an impact, especially at a time when it appears their economy is already in recession. They can't afford to lose the financial benefits that Hong Kong is capable of with all this unrest. It appears the entire reason this all happened was because Xi wanted more control over Hong Kong and speed up the removal of the city as a special administrative region before 2047.

    Basically, Xi tried to f*** Hong Kong before it was ready and now he's paying for it as now Hong Kong will likely never open its legs to the PRC again. Even if China pacifies Hong Kong, which is going to take many years to do, the booming economy there is never going to be the same, the Golden Goose will have been cooked. With how China's been exposed as being an unfair trade partner, other countries are just going to abandon them in favor of other developing Asian economies like Vietnam. Especially when there appears to be a global recession coming.

    With Trump finally speaking out about things in a sense, he may be able to get some sort of deal with the PRC that's favorable for the US, Hong Kong, and maybe China to some extent or at least allow them to save face.

    Can't say winning yet, but the game is very much winnable.
     
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  12. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Coming back to this thread after my third Turkish coffee. My jet lag doesn't bother me nearly as much as in the past, but I still get that nagging, hazy and slightly nauseous feeling. I completely agree with your points above. LOL, bizzaro world socialist plutocracy fits. Also, people are definitely used to living under the boot, especially gen-Xers and younger. Case in point, some of the commie OG's that I know absolutely love a chance to check out killy rifles and especially squeeze in a range trip when visiting freedom. I know an older guy that's heads a large business and is a party member. He's like a kid in a candy store if given a chance to go to the range, same for his compadres of similar age. I've made range trip offers to younger guys and they can't say 'no' fast enough and are very uncomfortable with even the though of handling a firearm. Maybe they are afraid their phones are listening (maybe they are).

    Practically all of them think this is a good thing, here's an example I saw in their (state run) news while in China this week:

    Crackdown on illegal firearms underway - Chinadaily.com.cn

    [​IMG]

    Notice that airsoft, Creepy Joe's "get a shotgun" over/under, and tools are included in this trophy pic. Can't see them, but even pellet guns are illegal and would have been destroyed with this lot.

    Covering for shipping certainly helps, but IMO that's only a few sprinkles on the cake of government propped unfair trade. It starts with ridiculously easy to obtain capital for investment in a new manufacturing venture. Also, theft of IP is institutionalized, followed by well supported industrialization of said stolen IP. They put on a show as far as periodically cracking down on counterfeit luxury goods, but industrial / commercial goods are openly copied. I even saw a blatant copy of a Mercedes G-Wagon rolling down the highway. I see industrial goods that are copied, right down to the logos sans a few very minor 'cute' changes such as substituting a '2' for a 'Z' or adding an extra letter to the beginning or end of a trade name. Content, construction, and formulas are identical though of course the quality may lag. They are upping their game in the quality department, and therefore constitute a bigger threat.

    Environmental is improving, but disposal costs for Chinese companies are still pretty much nil. Direct labor cost is increasing a little, but still a fraction of western companies and of course health benes are covered by uncle Mao.

    What blows my mind is that they are still perfectly happy to enter a new industrial market then proceed to both over-produce and sell at a fraction of market price, perhaps even at a loss. So many start-ups are able to get cheap capital and receive institutionalized technical support that they will choke out the players from outside China. Purchasing directors / buyers in the USA are such skinflints that they are not only willing to source from these Chinese producers, they are requesting the Chinese producers to develop the more advanced materials and/or components that are not already coming from China, so a lot of the trade problems with China are self-inflicted. The Chinese economy has definitely slowed, but they are still over-producing goods for export.

    Of course the Chinese take on HK is that those nasty terrorists need to be squashed. Forget about Fox news, but you can get CNN at western hotel chains. As soon as the HK situation was going to play, CNN was blacked out until the HK segment was over. Of course I was able to see what was happening on several news sources via VPN. It's not SOP for China to move so much equipment and not use it, but perhaps they are thinking twice. Though Trump's statesmanship is usually quite lacking in finesse LOL, I think he played the HK situation perfectly. Trump definitely gave Xi a reason to tread very carefully, without starting a pissing match.
     
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  13. ThePreBanMan

    ThePreBanMan

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    A Fair Haven in an unfair state.
    100% on point!!
     
  14. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Oh, some changes that I have noted vs. less than a year ago:

    Even more cameras in the streets as well as indoors for any public space. I'm also seeing more directional remote control cameras.

    Many if not most businesses are no longer accepting western credit cards (Amex, Visa, MasterCard). That's a real PITA. Had to pay for an expensive high speed train ticket in cash. The accepted form of electronic payment is via phone, using Chinese run 'WeChat Pay', 'Union Pay', or the like. No Apple Pay accepted, and for the Chinese services you have to have a Chinese bank account. Extremely inconvenient and to me, concerning. Yeah, I'm going to allow a Chinese app to run on my phone... not.

    Their social credit scoring system is even more pervasive, with signage here and there threatening to report violations and even on the train there were announcements not to do this or that (like smoke, etc.) or your conduct will be reported to the social credit system which could affect your ability to use the train system in the future. How 'bout them apples, piss off the wrong train flunkie and lose your ability to travel?
     
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  15. T-Unit

    T-Unit

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    I wouldn't say all Asians are against guns, I'm told in the Bay Area in California a large number of those you see at ranges are Asian. That said, there's a difference in perception with gun ownership with Asians based on nationality. Chinese and Filipinos tend to favor it more than Japanese and Koreans do.

    While China's economy isn't in freefall, it's not as strong as it was years ago and the confidence with foreign markets and companies is getting lower each month with how unfair China treats them. If you dip your toe in to a lake with the possibility of being bitten by a gator, you're not going to dip your toe in that lake, you'll just go find a lake that has no gators in it and we're seeing the beginnings of that now. It's just being accelerated with Huawei, HK, and tariffs.

    Trump has handled China very well, he's handling N. Korea better than recent predecessors. With both of them,Trump seems to actually think before he says anything as he understands how tight a rope has to be walked. With European countries Trump just lashes out and rightfully so, they're a bunch of imbeciles who don't pay their fair share in NATO and the EU is becoming increasingly hostile to Israel and the US. Not all of them, but Germany, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, and France are a bunch of freeloaders. Russia isn't the USSR anymore, they're not as powerful as they once were, the US, UK, and fmr Warsaw Pact countries could fight them, but it's China where we'd need more help and France, Germany, and Italy are all but useless against the Chinese if a war broke out. A freed Hong Kong and millions of people there willing to fight is a lot more helpful. They understand the threat a lot better than any nation in Europe does because the enemy is on their doorstep.

    That's why it's so important to support Hong Kong.
     
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  16. enbloc

    enbloc NES Life Member NES Member

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    [​IMG]

    They missed one...

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Dench

    Dench

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    Just to be clear I'm talking about Hong Kong, not "Hong Cong." Where is that, anyway?

    Modern doctrine doesnt favor swarm tactics, or huge troop movements. Shit, it didnt work in the Korean War, and that was in 1780. The same army, the PLA swarmed like ants into UN machine gun nests and ate machine gun fire like the true professionals they were. Of course they died immediately after, but they were pros at their job.

    Lots-o-troops? great. we have bombs. and other shit that goes boom to make lots of troops turn into zero troops. The PLA? They have a completly un tested and virtually never used anti air capability. Good luck with that. Their air force? The same shit. Their air force hasnt done anything since they fought Vietnam in the 70's. China's navy just figured out how to land planes on a vintage Soviet aircraft carrier they bought on sale in Ukraine. In terms of colossal pieces of shit, this carrier is the king turd of the ocean after the former king turd, Russians carrier was crushed in dry dock by the crane that was supposed to be fixing it after it was towed a few thousand miles back to port for repairs. Apparently the Russians are fixing that so until it hits the high seas again the PLA navy gets the turd trophy.

    And then theres the obvious: the ground forces. The PLA is nearly 100% non combat tested with a few outliers here and there. The Chinese army and India have had a fierce race to win the "worst assault rifle in Asia." India was able to recently pull out the victory with the INSAS being sent back to hell where it belongs and the QBZ-95 with it's 5.8x42mm round is sure to be a real treat in combat logistically. Need ammo? You better pray to Chairman Mao that supplies are still coming in because you can't use NATO or Warsaw pact ammo like a normal person.

    Whoever has the air wins. And the US isnt going to be losing that to the PRC at this point of time.

    Regardless, the US military isnt going to be doing shit about Hong Kong. It's the UK who should be all hot and bothered about this as China is throwing the 1997 deal in the trash like everyone expected them to and that deal was between those two morons.

    I'm not sure what's going on in Hong Cong though you could be completely correct about it I've never heard of it.
     
  18. Dench

    Dench

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    I'd say Trumps done "ok" with NK. Talking to Un is nice and all, however, little has actually come out of those conversations. They still play the same old bullshit games.

    China is definitely the bigger problem. They are basically the less incompetent version of the Soviets. And you are correct that the EU is now mathematically broke the laws of space time by becoming so useless strategically there actually isn't a percentage I can provide. It's that low.

    No ones coming to save HK. It might work out good this time, but oh boy is it going to repeat. And if it starts going south no one is coming to bail them out.

    I was reading an interesting story written by a US sailor who was in HK in the 90's. He gave a story that he and his pals were out and about pre hand over in 1997. Most people spoke English, were friendly and the place felt safe. He went to a McDonalds for food, the staff spoke English, was pleasant and the restaurant was well maintained. His ship returned about 5 months later post hand over and he said it was like visiting a different country. He and his friends went to the same mcdonalds and the same staff was there. only now they were complete a**h***s to them for making them speak English and not Cantonese. The place was a mess and the atmosphere was dangerous. HK had gone from a Western gem in the middle of PRC hell to cliche indoctrinated Asians (over night) who were now xenophobic and hated white people because now the PRC was the boss man.

    I suppose that reminds me a little of Singapore. Singapore is very nice, rich and advanced. But behind all that is some real crazy shit that may give a conservative an erection lasting more than 4 hours. And just as a PSA gentlemen if that happens you need to get that looked at ASAP as it can break your dick. Not that anyone on NES is using that, but regardless you know what i mean
     
  19. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Not that we need to worry about PLA ground forces, but neighboring countries should. Overwhelming numbers count, so long as you can move them where you need them. Despite a completely demoralizing kill ratio favoring the Finns, eventually the Soviet numbers won that war. Soviets were perfectly happy to march fresh troops over the frozen corpses of those sent before. They were even documented to have eaten their own when faced with either Finnish bullets or starvation. Worth worrying if you are on China's border- they can bridge rivers with bodies if they have to.

    Anywhere else that requires a navy or air presence to move troops? Nah.

    Side note: A few years ago I had a business dinner with the owner / president of a moderate sized customer in China. After lots of Maotai he started talking smack about relative military power between China and the US. His best friend owned a large nearby shipyard and he said that friend was contracted to build "A hundred aircraft carriers". As usual, customer was way more buzzed than I, so I was able to bite my tongue and keep from cracking a grin. Wasn't easy, because I knew what a POS the Liaoning was and that their 'next' gen self-build was essentially a clone of this turd. LOL, their carrier technology lags WAY behind even the Big E, which was built in '61 and went inactive in 2012. IIRC, the Liaoning was sold without its turbine engines and China had to use diesels? In Vietnam, my Dad flew off of an Essex-class carrier built in 1945 and even that old carrier had turbine engines. I always figure the company pays me to keep my attitude in check, but LOL they might not want to send me to China when I reach go-time for retirement because I might forget that.
     
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  20. Dench

    Dench

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    The PLA performed really poorly in the Sino-Vietnamese War of 1979. The war was under 1 month long and the PLA lost over 25,000 people and Vietnam lost over 30,000. In under a month. With as many for both sides wounded.

    I don't see any reason how the PLA would have a drastic paradigm shift since as they have virtually no other recent combat adventures with a few exceptions in tiny skirmishes in peace keeping missions abroad. I suspect their doctrine has changed, but it remains untested and i think we both know that the caliber of commander on the ground is probably near Arab military levels of retarded. Nearly all of the Asian and African doctrine harshly punishes leaders on the ground who take initiative, which is one of the main things that a leader on the ground must be able to do and is the hallmark of why these forces continue to absolutely suck at what they do.

    Take the Gurkas. They are from the Indian subcontinent. If they join the Nepalese or Indian army they would be wasted. But under Western doctrine and leadership style with the Brits they turn into elite units. I'm sure PLA soldiers are tough and dangerous. I just know that their leadership blows and they are all untested. Which isn't going to work for anyone when you face an enemy with a clue. Just take Russian SF in Syria when they occasional engage in Western SF. The Spetsnaz boyz get obliterated every time, and they are by no means pussies.
     
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  21. Mountain

    Mountain NES Member

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    Makes sense. Also, culturally they are not really geared to groom a reasonable number of good recruits for anything specialized. 2 or more generations afraid of gunz and very few if any experienced shooters or even outdoorsmen. Urbanization is such a big thing- stuff all those people in boxes and send them to school or work and grow a bunch of softies.

    Regarding leadership doctrine, according to some friends who were deployed during the Oblabla administration, the micro-management was figuratively if not literally killing us. God help us if we get another one of those administrations.

    I'll be watching the HK situation closely. I'm supposed to go to Shenzhen before end of year but won't if it's still packed with PLA troops and equipment.
     

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