Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

[Coyote33]

Irrelevant unless the state re-writes the order or redefines the meaning of "customer", "public" or "worker".

I've always said they should have a "TABLE OF DEFINITIONS", which can be referenced from anywhere in the laws.

still gun ranges were left off the table. This is pure tyranny and oppression.

The order is about gun shops and has nothing to do with ranges.

Maybe that should be another case. Are you talking about all gun ranges, or just commercial indoor ones?

Every one hates it. But one can hate it and realize it's a big deal that we got this. That's hopefully the point I hope I make to everyone.

Yeah, but it is sure easy to hate this.

You'd piss off all the non-gun owners, drop a gift into the laps of MA.gov and the MSM (but I repeat myself) and probably give a ton of LEO's a bunch of OT that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Way to think positive!

and ice cream shops as well have none of these "appropriate" restrictions.

How does ice cream work with masks? Ha.

This is not the case, all gun shops can be open 9am-9pm according to the judge's ruling. The state proposed what you described and the judge rejected it as insufficiently specific under the federal rules of civil procedure. He suggested 9am-9pm and the state basically assented.

I'd think most shops would want to open at 7:00 AM, and maybe leave at 7:00 PM after a 6:00 close, or something.

So does this have any bearing on gun stores being excluded from state and/or local relief funds?

I guess that would then be a 3rd lawsuit.

The People's Daily had an article about the decision but I had a hard time reading it as I was repeatedly distracted by the photo of the girls in tight dresses spraying champagne.
View attachment 355316

So much for the 6 foot space rule.

 

[headednorth]

Way to think positive!

Seriously though, how does blocking highways help our cause? When Antifa was doing that, I dont recall hearing anyone saying "gee I wonder why theyre doing this, maybe I should look into what they have to say." All they accomplished was to make people who never heard of them hate them and made people who hated them already hate them even more. Even the normies were pissed off at them.

Turning Joe Sixpack's 20 minute commute into a 3 hours isnt going to win any hearts and minds.

 

[Coyote33]

That ammo purchases are much like buying a bottle of liquor was mentioned - unfortunately he seemed to not care or ignored that line of argument.

You do not need an LTC or an appointment to purchase liquor, just be over 21.

They are going to keep their thumbs on everyone , until Comm 2A, GOAL, and the Fed Court knock them back again

Yup, plus don't they ignore some previous court rulings?

Yup. It stops follow up questions. The next reporter should ask him why he is out of touch.

ABSOLUTELY!!

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Especially about a federal Civil Rights case resulting in action against his office.

AND THIS!!!

 

[Billsail]

There's plenty of blame to go around. This is old news that I'm posting, as a reminder.

"Spineless Charlie" Of course, we all knew that!

From Apr1, Statehouse News Service:

'DeLeo’s office noticed the initial list of essential businesses and “immediately expressed its concern,” according to an official in the speaker’s office. DeLeo’s office was notified later in the day by the administration that the list had been updated, the source told the News Service
Gun control has be one of the speaker’s signatures issues in his more than 10 years leading the House.
Rep. Majorie Decker, thanked DeLeo on Twitter for pressuring Baker to reconsider the initial order as it related to guns.
In an interview, Decker acknowledged that there had been some confusion concerning the essential business list and gun shops after it was first issued Tuesday.
“At a time when we need to be concerned about issues of suicide and domestic violence, I am really happy that Speaker DeLeo continues to help keep an eye on the safety and security of Massachusetts residents and I’m grateful that Gov. Baker was amenable to working with him to ensure that any regulation coming out would not consider retail and gun ranges as essential services,” the Cambridge Democrat told the News Service.'

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

Great work by NRA-ILA and GOAL and whoever else was responsible for this! Now maybe I can buy my pump action shotgun, just in time to catch one day of turkey season.
Assuming I can get an "appointment" before May 23
Anyway, I can start practicing up for fall turkey, and for deer shotgun.

NRA did not participate in this action.

 

[EJFudd]

“At a time when we need to be concerned about issues of suicide and domestic violence, I am really happy that Speaker DeLeo continues to help keep an eye on the safety and security of Massachusetts residents and I’m grateful that Gov. Baker was amenable to working with him to ensure that any regulation coming out would not consider retail and gun ranges as essential services,” the Cambridge Democrat told the News Service.'

No shocker that an extreme leftist Dim representing moonbatty Cambridge would be willing to support anything that helped take away our 2A rights.

 

[71montess]

No shocker that an extreme leftist Dim representing moonbatty Cambridge would be willing to support anything that helped take away our 2A rights.

Yes but I’m kind of surprised the far left moonbat from Cambridge has this much influence ! Shows how much power the Farrr left really has !

 

[EJFudd]

Yes but I’m kind of surprised the far left moonbat from Cambridge has this much influence ! Shows how much power the Farrr left really has !

The scary thing is that she is not alone. Far too many leftist Dim MA pols stand ready to take away our rights at the first opportunity.

 

[Boston4567]

Was she the one who brought up Glocks?

Yup. She said 3rd and 4th generation Glocks couldn't be sold in MA due to their "safety defects" ... It wasn't clear to me what point she was trying to make

 

[Dadstoys]

There's plenty of blame to go around. This is old news that I'm posting, as a reminder.

"Spineless Charlie" Of course, we all knew that!

From Apr1, Statehouse News Service:

'DeLeo’s office noticed the initial list of essential businesses and “immediately expressed its concern,” according to an official in the speaker’s office. DeLeo’s office was notified later in the day by the administration that the list had been updated, the source told the News Service
Gun control has be one of the speaker’s signatures issues in his more than 10 years leading the House.
Rep. Majorie Decker, thanked DeLeo on Twitter for pressuring Baker to reconsider the initial order as it related to guns.
In an interview, Decker acknowledged that there had been some confusion concerning the essential business list and gun shops after it was first issued Tuesday.
“At a time when we need to be concerned about issues of suicide and domestic violence, I am really happy that Speaker DeLeo continues to help keep an eye on the safety and security of Massachusetts residents and I’m grateful that Gov. Baker was amenable to working with him to ensure that any regulation coming out would not consider retail and gun ranges as essential services,” the Cambridge Democrat told the News Service.'

Not that we already didn't know , but it's nice to see it out in the open about who runs this state..
DeLeo say's jump and empty suit says How high ?

 

[Clumber32]

I'm glad the package stores have been open -- but alcohol does a LOT more harm to people than guns do.

It should be left to people who are knowledgeable about guns to determine if they have safety issues. Gun manufacturers employ a lot of smart engineers who know what they're doing.

 

[Waher]

Yup. She said 3rd and 4th generation Glocks couldn't be sold in MA due to their "safety defects" ... It wasn't clear to me what point she was trying to make

That case set precedent that the AG is the sole arbiter of the suitability of consumer products sold in the Commonwealth under consumer protection powers just because she said so and the judge concurred. So the argument is that if the state wants to ban sales of any product on a whim, the AG has the power to do so at the request of the Governor.

 

[fshalor]

Funny how that works. Perhaps I am feeling optimistic, but I see some wiggle room in the appointments & transactions bullshit. Just got to bring your friends along so that no appointment possibly goes to waste and make sure that your "transaction" is a plentiful one.

Did they specify the number of people or parties in an appointment?

Call shop from parking lot. "Is there space in this appointment slot?". "Shure. Come on in".

 

[fshalor]

If there are 1.5 million LTC holders why is healey the AG?

I believe the 1.5 million number includes the lifetime issues Licenses. You know. The ones which expired.

The real number is around 3-400k. Of which half are FUDDs.

 

[terraformer]

At the next hearing can evidence be submitted showing that the AG has a very clear anti gun 2ND amendmendment agenda ?

Things like letters sent out to distributors like target sports midway and the like ?

A copy of the letter sent by the legeslature after her stunt 4 years ago ?

Time to burn the witch.

The AG‘s position on the 2A is a side show in this. Baker is the source of the policy.

 

[terraformer]

Welp, I put up my required signage

I saw a better one today but I am not at liberty to post. Hopefully it gets posted. It was worth the read and then some.

 

[terraformer]

Yup. She said 3rd and 4th generation Glocks couldn't be sold in MA due to their "safety defects" ... It wasn't clear to me what point she was trying to make

93a came up in the hearing because of a few reasons. But very little that the state said about it was accurate.

 

[oldguy68]

I know GOAL membership is around 15,000.
I can only imagine that COMM2A membership is significantly lower..

I hope any shops reading this thread put a few kind words here to thank them for their efforts and contribute to our fight!
If you chose to be open this Saturday, you owe them a word of gratitude at the very least!

 

[fshalor]

Not really. The state minions are very intelligent and capable people with a goal to accomplish. This just happens to be a case where they purport to be pusuing one goal while actually pursing another. They AGs office is either full of stupid people or they know exactly what they are trying to accomplish. My vote is on the later. Even NJ did not choose to go to the mat on this one like MA is (is, not was - this is just the first round).

It remains to be seen if the "non hobby" gun shops that generally handle dozens of transactions per hour on a Saturday will even bother open to do four per hour.

This isn't a win. I can't see them opening to 4/hr.

I'm sorry to detract from it. I do understand that it is a logistic step in a difficulr+-to-+move direction in the 4d chess game.

Should the state pay for Calendy pro plans for all gunshop employees?

Free Online Appointment Scheduling Software | Calendly

Calendly is the modern scheduling platform that makes “finding time” a breeze. When connecting is easy, your teams can get more done.

calendly.com

The state just placed a burden on them, without justification. (or well, I guess this is a TRO , so technically the court did. )

Can anyone do the maths along side me? I can't envision a world where any brick and mortar could even pay the power bill on a diet of transfer fees only.

Taking a small shop example 1 owner 3 employees. Open 7 days a week. Normal daily peak hour serves 50 people. Conversion rate of 20%.

One employee is the gunsmith. Half the time he gets brought up from the dungeon, it's a turn-a-way.

So an hour block could have been:
10 transactions.
2 ffl transfer fees $60
2 ammo purchases for $200 (profit $50)
1 gunsmith sight install $75 minus the $30 to the employee and $20 for insurance and taxes on his overhead.
1 handgun sale Taurus Curve and a box of .380 $400 (profit $100)
1 used gun consignment sale (maybe $50 profit)
1 new rifle sale $1100 Ruger American Scout with goodies (profit $150)
1 pepper spray for a dudes GF $12 ($5 maybe )
1 fake turkey lawn ornament as a joke ($5)

This is a kicking business, employees make 20-35/hr (40 hr / week. 2 off per year paid. With health insurance)

Take that example hour. 20% conversion rate. 50 person flow.

If 20 of those hours happened a week, this shop would pull in $1.9 million a year net. $225k in profit. Call that a baseline.

Now yank that down to 4 /hour
Max: $85k (biggest transactions )
Min: -$211k (smallest transactions)

This was calculated assuming a 100% conversion rate per appointment (all appointments generate a sale. Doubtful. Should actually be between 50% and 75% conversion.)

Now If 2/3 employees were fired. Not including unemployment costs.

Max: $248k
Min: -$71k

That's a lot of risk.No way would I run a business with a potential swing into the red that far.

20 good hours per week at my initial rates would give me a few hundred K in profit, while paying for 3 employees. Business flow would have to cut that in half to see a loss.

Vs the 4apt/hour plan. Which offers no ability to maintain a floor on paper.

 

[jaypap]

Yup. She said 3rd and 4th generation Glocks couldn't be sold in MA due to their "safety defects" ... It wasn't clear to me what point she was trying to make

So if a Mass. Cop shoots someone with a gun with known safety defects what would be the recourse on the AG for allowing police to have them all these years.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Seriously though, how does blocking highways help our cause?

The concept is "we will cause you pain until you do as well tell you to".

 

[headednorth]

The concept is "we will cause you pain until you do as well tell you to".

Thats never going to work for us in this state. I dont think that will work for gun owners in ANY state

 

[Broc]

I believe the 1.5 million number includes the lifetime issues Licenses. You know. The ones which expired.

The real number is around 3-400k. Of which half are FUDDs.

And out of the 150K of so non FUDDS, only 10% are members of GOAL or Comm 2A.

That is sad.

 

[Broc]

So if a Mass. Cop shoots someone with a gun with known safety defects what would be the recourse on the AG for allowing police to have them all these years.

Bro...the thin blue line.

They are professionals, you are not.
They risk their lives every day they walk out.
They risk getting COVID to protect YOU.

I can keep going if you want.

 

[oldguy68]

Thats never going to work for us in this state. I dont think that will work for gun owners in ANY state

My comments on blocking a road was just to point out about how the govt. now views our rights vs how some of us view them.
Blocking a road would just piss off everyone, but the one doing the blocking.
Don't worry though because our freedoms aren't worth the effort anyways!

There are two types of protesters: The ones that sit home and complain and those that take it to the streets..
Most gun owners could barely leave their couch!

 

[Coyote33]

Taking a small shop example 1 owner 3 employees. Open 7 days a week. Normal daily peak hour serves 50 people.

Most, if not all, small shops I have been to, I have only been customer 2 or 3 while there. I don't think I've ever seen 5 or more customers in a small shop, let alone 10, and 50 is right out.

 

[Jason Flare]

Most, if not all, small shops I have been to, I have only been customer 2 or 3 while there. I don't think I've ever seen 5 or more customers in a small shop, let alone 10, and 50 is right out.

I don’t know about MA but in FL there are shops as big as grocery stores with pallets full of guns and employees at counters all around.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That case set precedent that the AG is the sole arbiter of the suitability of consumer products sold in the Commonwealth under consumer protection powers just because she said so and the judge concurred. So the argument is that if the state wants to ban sales of any product on a whim, the AG has the power to do so at the request of the Governor.

Actually, the court ruled that the Glock loaded chamber indicator was not effective, therefore the ban could stand. RTFD. (read the decision). Basically the court looked at the Glock manual and ruled "All claims by AG accepted as fact; all plaintiffs claims rejected; summary judgement for AG; no trial of the case on its merits because the result is so obvious to this court.".

That is quite different from a ruling stating the AG can ban anything. I doubt the AG could have a ban on selling unapproved literature upheld by the courts, and it is certainly not covered by the precedent in this case.

 

[MAJoe]

Most, if not all, small shops I have been to, I have only been customer 2 or 3 while there. I don't think I've ever seen 5 or more customers in a small shop, let alone 10, and 50 is right out.

Head up to Four Seasons on a Saturday. It's a zoo.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Head up to Four Seasons on a Saturday. It's a zoo.

A zoo with four customers per hour, appointment required. Confirmed directly with Carl.