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Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

mlaboss said:
Here's a direct link to the PDF of the order for anyone who needs it:

Click to expand...

someone earlier commented that he felt like Charlie Brown wondering if Lucy was going to pull the football away again.

I read the order and now I feel like Charlie lying on his back, feeling like a fool for having gotten his hopes up that maybe, just maybe this time she wouldn’t pull the football away.

In the narrowest, most technical sense this is a “win” because plaintiffs got a TRO at all, but I surely am not celebrating. I’m really sad and angry right now.

R
 
Here's the way I see the order- anyone in the know, please correct me if I'm wrong.
  1. The judge's order gets the stores open.
  2. The conditions on the order are definitely binding constraints on the conditions the state can impose on any gun shops statewide. E.g., the state cannot impose additional restrictions on any shops without petitioning the court.
  3. I believe the conditions on the order may be enforceable by the court against the named plaintiffs, if the judge feels there is a violation
  4. I don't believe the conditions on the order are enforceable by the court against gun shops that are not named plaintiffs.
In other words, I think Four Seasons or any other shop could, should they have the cojones, come up with an 'interpretation' of the order such as four guns per hour per clerk, or ammo not counting as an 'appointment', or both. And then they could just do it.

Unless Baker writes the court's orders into his own order, there is no state law violation that Maura or Woburn PD could enforce. Of course, they could write up such an enforceable order. But until they do, I think the gun shops could operate with impunity.

Certainly, I think there is room for non-named plaintiffs to nibble around the edges (say, 6 appointments per hour).
 
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So slowly over the last ten years or so my wife's eyes have opened and she no longer votes a party line. She has seen what it means to lose freedom in this State. In the near future we need to organize to vote the Healy's out of office.

All she is doing is playing Baker for a puppet and he continues to fall for it. He looks bad, we vote him out and another goes in for her to manipulate. She walks away unscathed.

It started four Attorney Generals ago it is a AG problem. That's who needs to go. It started with Harshbarger then Reilly and Coakley. It is a power trip. Get your family, friends and co-workers on board. The closer election results are the more they pay attention.
 
Boston4567 said:
Here's the way I see the order- anyone in the know, please correct me if I'm wrong.
  1. The judge's order gets the stores open.
  2. The conditions on the order are definitely binding constraints on the conditions the state can impose on any gun shops statewide. E.g., the state cannot impose additional restrictions on any shops without petitioning the court.
  3. I believe the conditions on the order may be enforceable by the court against the named plaintiffs, if the judge feels there is a violation
  4. I don't believe the conditions on the order are enforceable by the court against gun shops that are not named plaintiffs.
In other words, I think Four Seasons or any other shop could, should they have the cojones, come up with an 'interpretation' of the order such as four guns per hour per clerk, or ammo not counting as a 'transaction', or both. And then they could just do it.

Unless Baker writes the court's orders into his own order, there is no state law violation that Maura or Woburn PD could enforce. Of course, they could write up such an enforceable order. But until they do, I think the gun shops could operate with impunity.

Certainly, I think there is room for non-named plaintiffs to nibble around the edges (say, 6 appointments per hour).
Click to expand...


Why does everyone use the word "transaction"?

Is that in some document I've been unable to find? Everything I've read says "...not more than four appointments per hour..."
 
Great work by NRA-ILA and GOAL and whoever else was responsible for this! Now maybe I can buy my pump action shotgun, just in time to catch one day of turkey season.
Assuming I can get an "appointment" before May 23 :(
Anyway, I can start practicing up for fall turkey, and for deer shotgun.
 
Inside Out said:
I have written on this forum before that people are usually off the mark if they think we are going to just "win it in the courts." Courts typically don't issue broad, sweeping decisions. Instead, they nibble at the margins, decide only that which needs to be decided, and defer what can be deferred. This isn't true only in gun cases -- it's true much of the time, and particularly true in cases like this one that seek injunctive relief, which under the law is viewed as an extraordinary remedy to begin with. That's why it's so important to stop legislation before it happens (when possible, of course; it wasn't possible here because Baker acted by emergency fiat).

Some are disappointed that this judge didn't go as far as we all would have liked. That's understandable, but it rarely works that way, and not just in gun cases.

In my view, any day that the State is rebuked on a gun rights case is a good day. And today's decision came from a judge sitting in Massachusetts! That's a rare day indeed.
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I agree. We can at least pick up guns and ammo.
 
Friday said:
This state is obsessed with the number 4. You can only sell 4 cars w/o a dealer's license, 4 guns w/o a FFL transfer, 4 appointments in a hour...it is because Beacon Hill can't count past four?
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www.tofugu.com

Growing Up With An Irrational Fear Of The Number Four

The number four is terrifying… or at least that’s what I was raised to believe. “Don’t buy four of those!” “Don’t give four of those!” “No way we’re going to live on the fourth floor.” “Fourth of July with all those fireworks? You’re just asking for trouble.” The worst part is never being able...
www.tofugu.com www.tofugu.com
 
Beretta92FS said:
Actually, you can’t. Ranges are still closed.

Wonder if it can be argued that it’s a safety issue here - people can buy guns but cannot practice with them.
Click to expand...
Commercial ranges. Ranges that are not open to the public and don't have customers or workers are not covered in the AG's order according to a very reasonable interpretation.
 
I guess this wouldn't be NES without a big load of foot-stomping and pouting. I realize people are disappointed that 2A jurisprudence in the real world doesn't operate the way it does in the skittles-farting unicorn world many believe we live in.

I know the Comm2A folks can speak for themselves but, some of the comments in this thread really do come off lacking in gratitude for all the effort that goes into securing a ruling like we received today.

The Comm2A folks do an excellent job of setting proper expectations for outcomes and do their best to educate people about the process and the game that must be played. An yet, people here still react like the crying child in the grocery store having been denied the candy they are entitled to have.

We have an opponent with nearly limitless resources who is willing to spend whatever it takes and operate every legal lever available to them in order to prevent ceding even an inch of ground to us. So come noon on Saturday, how many appointments do you think would be available at local gun stores had Judge Woodlock ruled the way many of the judges in the Boston District have in many of our cases?

Celebrate the victory and book an appointment to go make a purchase and show your support. If, in short order, local gun stores aren't fully booked with appointments for the foreseeable future, then shame on us.
 
Angryceltic said:
Because the thumb is up their ass.
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Not really. The state minions are very intelligent and capable people with a goal to accomplish. This just happens to be a case where they purport to be pusuing one goal while actually pursing another. They AGs office is either full of stupid people or they know exactly what they are trying to accomplish. My vote is on the later. Even NJ did not choose to go to the mat on this one like MA is (is, not was - this is just the first round).
If, in short order, local gun stores aren't fully booked with appointments for the foreseeable future, then shame on us.
Click to expand...
It remains to be seen if the "non hobby" gun shops that generally handle dozens of transactions per hour on a Saturday will even bother open to do four per hour.
 
Beretta92FS said:
Actually, you can’t. Ranges are still closed.

Wonder if it can be argued that it’s a safety issue here - people can buy guns but cannot practice with them. You cannot sight in or pattern that new gun you just bought.
Click to expand...

Concord Rod & Gun indoor pistol range is open for members, one user at a time; others must wait their turn, properly distanced. Trap range is open as well.
 
Thanks for the win!
I guess some of us just can't fathom how a federal judge can't see through all the infringements this state places on a federally protected constitutional right.
Liquor stores are essential and have more operating rights than a firearm retail business here in MA.
I guess some of us simpletons learned to read and understand what the word infringe means and don't have a convoluted interpretation of the word.
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
Not really. The state minions are very intelligent and capable people with a goal to accomplish. This just happens to be a case where they purport to be pusuing one goal while actually pursing another. They AGs office is either full of stupid people or they know exactly what they are trying to accomplish. My vote is on the later. Even NJ did not choose to go to the mat on this one like MA is (is, not was - this is just the first round).

It remains to be seen if the "non hobby" gun shops that generally handle dozens of transactions per hour on a Saturday will even bother open to do four per hour.
Click to expand...

With some of the stupid sh*t this state does, it makes it easy for people outside the 2A community to ascribe the Commonwealth's actions to incompetence rather than malice.

Take the order for the reopening of golf courses for instance. Nowhere in that order could I find an exception to the golf cart prohibition that allows/requires the golf courses to provide a small number of regularly sanitized carts for golfers with a physical disability that precludes walking the course. Does this mean that Tall Deval hates disabled people? He's discriminating against them with this order.

Basically, the golf courses are now open to the able-bodied golfer but those with certain physical disabilities are excluded. I don't think it is a tough sell to argue that even during our current state of emergency, providing a small number of carts for disabled golfers would be a reasonable accommodation as required under the ADA. I can't believe it would be too difficult to find an attorney willing to pursue such a case.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Commercial ranges. Ranges that are not open to the public and don't have customers or workers are not covered in the AG's order according to a very reasonable interpretation.
Click to expand...


Can you or someone explain this interpretation to me? I am on the e-board of my small club and am having trouble aligning the rest of the board to the fact that private ranges were never covered under the range closure order.
 
dw617 said:
Can you or someone explain this interpretation to me? I am on the e-board of my small club and am having trouble aligning the rest of the board to the fact that private ranges were never covered under the range closure order.
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Read the regulations where is says membes of the public, customers or workers - and ask if any of your members qualify.
 
No matter how small it's a win and now we have a foot hold. Thanks to com2a , goal and all the lawyers involved good job
 
blisterpeanuts said:
Great work by NRA-ILA and GOAL and whoever else was responsible for this! Now maybe I can buy my pump action shotgun, just in time to catch one day of turkey season.
Assuming I can get an "appointment" before May 23 :(
Anyway, I can start practicing up for fall turkey, and for deer shotgun.
Click to expand...

PM me
 

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