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Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

"Many of the plaintiffs live near state borders. They can always go to dealers in New Hampshire."

This reminds me of Justice Breyer's remarks back in 2010: "Are you a sportsman? Do you like to shoot pistols at targets? Well, get on the subway and go to Maryland. There is no problem, I don't think, for anyone who really wants to have a gun."
 
Jeez, I mean, 2A infringements on individuals aside, how about how this is clearly an attack on the business owners themselves? Not sure if this is included anywhere or not in the arguments, but is there any mention of making FFLs/ stores close up shop and then also SPECIFICALLY excluding them from any form of financial support or stimulus? Would be interesting to hear what the states "justifications" are on that as well. It's clearly a blatant move.
 
Law360 (May 4, 2020, 7:57 PM EDT) -- A Massachusetts federal judge on Monday laid into attorneys for Gov. Charlie Baker for offering "concerted silence" about why the state closed gun stores during the COVID-19 outbreak while allowing liquor stores and other retailers without constitutional underpinnings to remain open.

During a three-hour hearing, U.S. District Judge Douglas P. Woodlock repeatedly pressed government attorneys for the state's rationale and asked them to work with retailers challenging the closures to draft a plan on how the stores could safely reopen in case he decides the Second Amendment demands it.

Defending Baker, Assistant Attorney General Julia Kobick said bold moves were needed to stop the virus in its tracks and save lives, and argued the burden on the Second Amendment is light because citizens can still acquire guns through private sales and buy ammunition at Walmart.

"In times of crisis, the government is entitled to draw lines and is entitled to deference in how it draws lines in determining what is essential for human survival," Kobick said. "I don't know why liquor stores were included, but gun retailers were not."

Judge Woodlock agreed that governments are owed deference "at the macro level" when responding to emergencies, but said they aren't freed from all responsibilities. He mused that the decision may have been related to the state's strong liquor lobby or its political leanings on gun control.

"Now we are dealing with the micro level, and deference doesn't fall like the mists over San Clemente," the judge said. "It requires a sober analysis of the responsibilities of those who sell various kinds of commodities and in the absence of any contemporaneous explanation what it is that could distinguish those two ... the line is drawn to burden constitution rights and not sumptuary rights."

He added: "In the absence of real justification or a real outline of what the distinctions are, it is really difficult to give deference to concerted silence on the part of the administrators who are required to make these decisions."

In two lawsuits joined into the single case before Judge Woodlock, Massachusetts citizens, gun shops and advocacy groups are asking the court to force the state to let the shops resume sales after Baker ordered their closure in early April. Lobbyist groups including the National Rifle Association decried the closures as egregious violations of constitutional rights.

The state has argued that the temporary nature of the ban and the other avenues to buy guns and ammo mean the plaintiffs' constitutional rights aren't heavily burdened. But the citizens and stores have argued that person-to-person private transactions are no replacement for gun stores, which offer the type of advice that's important to first-time buyers as well as warranties for the products.

Kobick repeated throughout the hearing that the closures should be upheld and are narrowly tailored because they are set to end May 18.

Judge Woodlock pushed back on the "temporary" justification, saying it fails to capture the situation where deadlines have already been extended twice.

"'Temporary and sustained' is what I'd say at this stage, and so there's been a good deal of time with no formal justification, and sustained, not only temporary, impingement of Second Amendment rights," the judge said.

The availability of ammunition is a major issue as well, according to Judge Woodlock, who explained, "If you're shooting blanks, you don't have Second Amendment rights."

From the record of briefs and affidavits before him, Judge Woodlock asked the state whether the availability of some handgun ammunition — albeit for smaller calibers not ideal for personal protection — at some Walmarts around the state justify the state's "effective ban" on ammunition sales through the closure of the gun shops.

"We do contend that rights of plaintiffs are fully protected by the availability of ammunition in Walmart," Kobick responded. "Many of the plaintiffs live near state borders. They can always go to dealers in New Hampshire."

The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened.

"I want to see if I can resolve the question promptly and if I issue an order, it's one the parties believe is workable if not justifiable," the judge said.

From the outset, Judge Woodlock indicated his analysis would follow steps laid out in a 2018 case in the First Circuit, Gould et al. v. Morgan et al., that adopted a two-part test to determine whether an action runs afoul of the Second Amendment based on how close it comes to the core of the right and then whether it withstands appropriate scrutiny.

The Gould decision held as a core Second Amendment right the ability "of responsible citizens to use arms in defense of hearth and home."

The McCarthy plaintiffs are represented by David D. Jensen of David Jensen & Associates.

The Cedrone LLC plaintiffs are repented by Andrew J. Couture.

Baker and other state officials named in the suit are represented by Julia Kobick of the Massachusetts Office of the Attorney General.

The cases are McCarthy et al. v. Baker et al., case number 1:20-cv-10701, and Cedrone LLC et al. v. Baker et al., case number 1:20-cv-40041, in the U.S. District Court for the District of Massachusetts.
Thanks for posting this!
 
"The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened."

This part I love - it's like 'If we buy this house, I'd like to get each of your opinions on what color we should paint the kitchen
 
"The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened."

This part I love - it's like 'If we buy this house, I'd like to get each of your opinions on what color we should paint the kitchen
He's prob looking to split the difference
 
"The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened."

This part I love - it's like 'If we buy this house, I'd like to get each of your opinions on what color we should paint the kitchen

Wasnt the draft for limitations already done, and is being currently practiced by ALL the other Essential businesses open in MA?? And was being practiced by ALL of the gun shops before being closed?
 
Hmmm..... that could work rather nicely if a shop just happened to have a loading dock that opened up to the customer parking lot ;)


I went to pick up a gallon of paint from Sherwin Williams at curbside. How the FFF is paint more essential than guns? ... or lawn care for that matter. If this some sort of real doom and EMT and cops and nurses are dying, but painting your walls with designer paint is ok, just like having people turn up a f***ing dust cloud cutting and blowing lawns ... that's not very doom scenario.

In my case with curb pick up, dude stepped out and put my paint on the table. Yes he had to take my credit card etc. I don't see how f***ing contact is avoided here, it was just plain retarded to see this dance.

Similar, in all the Walmarts, Targets ... if these were open for trully essential items, the aisles with toys/furniture/cosmetics could be easily blocked, but they are not, people go and shop there for shit that's absolutely non-essential by any f***ing definition, but certainly not something a small, dedicated business can no longer compete in.
 
"The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened."

This part I love - it's like 'If we buy this house, I'd like to get each of your opinions on what color we should paint the kitchen

The governor should be limited to treating gun shops the same, or at a higher level, since they are Constitutionally PROTECTED FROM HIM, as any other shop or business.

Let's look at it as another protected civil right:
"The hearing ended with Judge XYZ asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for black women if he were to decide Rosa Parks should be able to ride that bus."




Wasnt the draft for limitations already done, and is being currently practiced by ALL the other Essential businesses open in MA?? And was being practiced by ALL of the gun shops before being closed?

Good point. They should follow the same guidelines as any other business in Massachusetts.



I went to pick up a gallon of paint from Sherwin Williams at curbside. ... In my case with curb pick up, dude stepped out and put my paint on the table. Yes he had to take my credit card etc. I don't see how f***ing contact is avoided here, it was just plain retarded to see this dance. ...
You read him your credit card number over the phone, and he types it in. Same way you order other things on the phone.
 
Yet again the mysteries of MA useless political themes of grave importance and the theories behind them. I posted yesterday in a thread where I was told to basically wear a mask before entering a bank. Reading above, I'm encouraged to go to New Hampshire to purchase items when normally they follow those (especially the politicians who decided taxes) avoiding MA taxes to buy things in NH. Then the part that I can buy ammunition in Walmart anyway (who stopped selling "Handgun" ammunition) of which NH is actually closer to me then a Walmart that still sells any ammunition but not closer then the 5 or 6 LGS's within a 5 mile diameter. Good thing the pot shops are open but I don't do pot.

The only thing I get out of any of these legal confrontations on guns is a political agenda whose base is as thin as water and takes an enormous effort instead of a 5 minute "get the hell out of here" judicial comment.
 
You read him your credit card number over the phone, and he types it in. Same way you order other things on the phone.

oh no, not that simple. I gave me my credit card physically without gloves with my germs on it
he gave me card and receipt and paint can without gloves with his germs on it
I gave him paint can back because it was dented with my germs back and talked to his face without mask on
He talked back to my face and came out with another paint can and more of his germs

Of course it could have be handled "safer" according to "experts" but how the f*** is this safe and essential? More like next election cycle, let's see who donates to f***er.
 
Words can't describe the disdain I have for that piece of shit.
I was told by one shop they would not hold anything on a CC because of fraud. I dont use my CC alot , but is this typical?
Credit cards have many business classifications and further divide transactions into "card present" and "card not present". The rate paid is a big matrix based on business type, credit card type (premium cards like Visa Signature cost the merchant more), and card presentness. Smaller businesses that deal with intermediaries that just boost the fee high enough to cover all cases don't see this, however, larger ones do. It's classic price discrimination - for example, grocery stores and gas stations pay a smaller percentage than restaurants, etc. because the former would not accept cards at the percentage charged to the later.

This "business classification" is how credit card companies able to offer promotions like '"x$ on dining only" (rebating only where the merchant fee is high).

So it may be a place getting a "card present" rate can't contractually accept verbal numbers without altering their arrangement and fee schedule on the cards. Unless you are dealing with the proprietor don't expect the guy behind the counter to know the real reason. Even chain store managers may not have the real reason, just a memo from HQ.
 
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This is getting so ridiculous that our side's attorneys should apologize to the court for parading such a person (AG's counsel) before it(*)

* - With due credit to Felix Unger for the line
 
This is getting so ridiculous that our side's attorneys should apologize to the court for parading such a person (AG's counsel) before it(*)

* - With due credit to Felix Unger for the line
Is there a particular update I'm missing, or just a more general note on the state of things/
 
"The hearing ended with Judge Woodlock asking the parties to draft an order detailing what limitations would be appropriate for firearms retailers if he were to decide they needed to be reopened."
How about "Gun shops shall be subject to the same restrictions as grocery stores". Imagine though Four Seasons having to have a one hour "seniors and vulnerable only" hour at the beginning of each shopping day.
Is there a particular update I'm missing, or just a more general note on the state of things
Just a general commentary about the absurdity of the AGs counsel doing everything except admitting to the truth - this was an action against civilian gun ownership, not against a virus.
 
I have been taking each of my unemployment checks and separating them out. The 600 federal money is going toward my bills and expenses. The state money is getting put on the side and I will use that for as much guns and ammo as I can. I want to know that the state paid for my new habbit and put that money right in the last place they would ever want it.
 
For the state's attorney to say that consumers can go to other states or over the border, at least one poster here already mentioned avoiding the MA sales tax as one issue. However, there are other issues to consider.

For example, on the morning news, the state of Maine said that if out-of-state women want to go to a hairdresser or nail spa in ME, they first need to quarantine themselves in Maine for 14 days. So, how does that work with complying with social distancing with out of state people for other products and services such as ammo?

NH Rockingham County folks know that Essex, Middlesex, and Worcester County have high rates of Covid, so do they really want consumers driving over the border from these locations? Should MA people quarantine for 14 days in NH before going to the NH LGS?

The whole point is that if the MA LGS closures were really about containing Covid, the MA attorney would not recommend people leave their homes and spread or pick up Covid in other states, which violates the call for the stay-at-home MA policy espoused by her bosses, Baker and Healey, so as mentioned, her argument that ammo is available in other states is specious, at best.
 
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The whole point is that if the MA LGS closures were really about containing Covid, the MA attorney would not recommend people leave their homes and spread or pick up Covid in other states, which violates the call for the stay-at-home MA policy espoused by her bosses, Baker and Healey, so as mentioned, her argument that ammo is available in other states is specious, at best

Honestly just about everything the state has said is suspicious- you can shoot in your backyard, you should go to other states during a pandemic, it's ok to meet with strangers you found online to buy and sell guns in a parking lot in a pandemic...
 
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Honestly just about everything the state has said is suspicious- you can shoot in your backyard, you should go to other states during a pandemic, it's ok to meet with strangers you found online to buy guns in a parking lot in a pandemic to buy and sell guns.
Jeeze, wish I had known I could have gone to RI and grabbed a new Glock G17, loaded it up with the 22lr I got from Walmart, and target practiced on my 2/3 of an acre in a densely populated area.
 
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