Comm2A, SAF, GOAL and FPC file against Baker admin on shop closures

HorizontalHunter

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we can only hope, maybe the sheeple will wake up but I highly doubt it. When I see these sheeple wearing masks as they're walking/running and bicycle riding I just shake my head. I actually saw a guy on a Harley wearing one recently. I just saw people driving cars wearing masks inside their own cars. WTF?
There have been several cases where the driver has passed out from lack of oxygen and crashed. They should sue 3M for the faulty mask and GM for the faulty car.

Bob
 

mav

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This is not true.

It is true that a mask that is less than N100 is not 100% effective.

That is not the same thing as "a mask does nothing" A mask will protect you from most droplets, and if a mask is fitted correctly, most of the air you breathe will go through the mask.

No, it's not 100% effective, but they absolutely do help.

If your position is "they're not 100% effective, then why bother?" you should examine your position on carrying a gun or wearing a seatbelt or using a condom.



I was addressing why someone might be seen driving in their own car wearing a mask. (between stops) You're right about being far away from other people though, it's not like nuclear fallout.
There is zero science behind cloth and homemade masks, the majority of what non-medical professionals are wearing, reducing infection of the wearer. Zero. You can't even put a number on it. Is it 50%? Is it 75%? There is no science supporting cloth masks. Here is some information debunking cloth masks however: New study questions the effectiveness of masks against SARS-CoV-2

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but people need to stop spreading misinformation. The comment "It's not 100% effective, but they absolutely do help" is no different than me saying "The lockdown and economic collapse wasn't 100% effective, but it absolutely did help". Again, BS. Meanwhile, how many unemployed or small business owners are SOL, watching their lives get blown up?

My position is that a cloth mask is ineffective as PPE, but may help reduce the spread if I am an asymptomatic carrier. My position on carrying a gun or wearing a seatbelt or a condom have nothing to do with this and in fact show a distinct lack of comprehension as statistical studies have shown that all of those things mention have a very high probability of working to the benefit of the user. Masks, not so much.
 
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Mesatchornug

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There is zero science behind cloth and homemade masks, the majority of what non-medical professionals are wearing, reducing infection of the wearer. Zero. You can't even put a number on it. Is it 50%? Is it 75%? There is no science supporting cloth masks. Here is some information debunking cloth masks however: New study questions the effectiveness of masks against SARS-CoV-2

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but people need to stop spreading misinformation. The comment "It's not 100% effective, but they absolutely do help" is no different than me saying "The lockdown and economic collapse wasn't 100% effective, but it absolutely did help". Again, BS. Meanwhile, how many unemployed or small business owners are SOL, watching their lives get blown up?
"The research, [...] involved a group of four participants receiving medical care for COVID-19. "​

There is no scientific basis for any study that includes four participants. Further, this study only possibly tests one direction of transport.

Considering how much is unknown about transmission vectors, the kindest statement would be that this grants an incomplete picture.

"The consistent finding of virus on the outer mask surface is unlikely to have been caused by experimental error or artifact."​

You know, unless the room was generally contaminated to begin with...or any of a number of other ways you could cock up a test that includes at most 40 samples.
 

Boston4567

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There is zero science behind cloth and homemade masks, the majority of what non-medical professionals are wearing, reducing infection of the wearer. Zero. You can't even put a number on it. Is it 50%? Is it 75%? There is no science supporting cloth masks. Here is some information debunking cloth masks however: New study questions the effectiveness of masks against SARS-CoV-2

I apologize if this sounds harsh, but people need to stop spreading misinformation. The comment "It's not 100% effective, but they absolutely do help" is no different than me saying "The lockdown and economic collapse wasn't 100% effective, but it absolutely did help". Again, BS. Meanwhile, how many unemployed or small business owners are SOL, watching their lives get blown up?

My position is that a cloth mask is ineffective as PPE, but may help reduce the spread if I am an asymptomatic carrier. My position on carrying a gun or wearing a seatbelt or a condom have nothing to do with this and in fact show a distinct lack of comprehension as statistical studies have shown that all of those things mention have a very high probability of working to the benefit of the user. Masks, not so much.
I agree with this, and would also say there's a decent chance the real world impact of cloth masks is to increase overall transmission. With masks, people touch the masks and their faces more. If they're actually infectious, the mask will be virus-laden and they are getting virus on their hands which they will then spread to door handles, etc.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming... Comm2a has asked to amend their complaint to include shooting ranges. This would allow Comm2a to participate and provide evidence on the subject of ranges, so it's not left to the Cedrone plaintiffs to litigate.

The judge has granted Comm2a's request.

Second amended complaint: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.mad.220544/gov.uscourts.mad.220544.97.1.pdf

[rockon]
 

HorizontalHunter

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milktree

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There have been several cases where the driver has passed out from lack of oxygen and crashed.
"several"? Do you have links to any?

I found exactly one incident that "may" have caused... or "cops say" (and they're medical experts, right?)

All the articles claim "too much CO2", which doesn't cause you to pass out. Too much CO2 causes you to think you're suffocating, even if you have plenty of O2. If he'd gotten "too much CO2", he would have ripped the mask off.

I don't buy it.
 
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HorizontalHunter

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"several"? Do you have links to any?

I found exactly one incident that "may" have caused... or "cops say" (and they're medical experts, right?)

All the articles claim "too much CO2", which doesn't cause you to pass out. Too much CO2 causes you to think you're suffocating, even if you have plenty of O2. If he'd gotten "too much CO2", he would have ripped the mask off.

I don't buy it.
Those are the same ones I saw. The ABC news one is the one that stuck in my mind.

Bob
 
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So, it has been a week since the judge made a decision. Has anything changed with regards to his week-old decision? How will his decision impact the opening up of things on Monday? Will shops no longer need the 4 appointments per hour? Any other changes for shops this week?
 

Boston4567

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So, it has been a week since the judge made a decision. Has anything changed with regards to his week-old decision? How will his decision impact the opening up of things on Monday? Will shops no longer need the 4 appointments per hour? Any other changes for shops this week?
This stuff is going to change on the order of weeks, not days. The system moves deliberately, and if anyone tries to move too quickly or push too hard it will kick back against them. The Cedrone plaintiffs got themselves admonished by the judge for requesting an ex parte TRO, because the judge would get himself admonished by an appeals court if he'd granted it. Shit rolls downhill.

Baker delayed the reopening by 24 hours, so technically it's on the 19th. Realistically, on Monday he's going to extend the order. More precisely, it is widely expected to be "replaced" by a new order with reopening rules and guidance and restrictions, both broad and industry-specific. Even "essential" businesses are expected to have restrictions going forward.

That doesn't matter though. Restrictions on gun shops are governed by the court now, not Baker.

It's possible the plaintiffs could petition the court to amend its preliminary injunction if circumstances change dramatically with regard to restrictions on general retail, and the four appointments per hour thing was obviously wildly excessive. But if Baker's new order is as restrictive as is expected, I don't think there would be any point. We're probably stuck with that for a bit.

Once the plaintiff shops have a few weeks or a month of experience under the restrictions, I believe they could push to amend the injunction if they presented a workable formula based on square footage or something. Honestly, I think they'll probably just fudge things to make it work and no one will care. I already know of shops that accept "immediate appointments" [laugh].

The game over the next two weeks with this case is going to be getting ranges opened up. I wouldn't expect much change on the gun shop front.
 
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stores and ranges are part of phase one
They don't have additional comments regarding following Mandatory Workplace Safety Standards. I'm assuming this is because there's been a separate ruling on their conducting business? At least regarding retailers.
 

Len-2A Training

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I'm cynical . . . I wonder if the court rules the case moot and then days/a couple of weeks later, Faker renegs.

Can the case be re-opened or does Comm2A, etc. have to go thru the entire dance all over again?
 

Boston4567

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I can't find any "Reopening MA" guidance that applies to shops/ranges. I don't know what that means for ranges. Does it mean they can reopen, full stop, with no occupancy or hygiene restrictions? I don't think we're going to achieve certainty until there's a court filing (Healey needs to respond by Wednesday at noon).

I think the court can retain jurisdiction over the case and not moot it, given that the state claims it can go back on its phases at a moment's notice.
 
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I can't find any "Reopening MA" guidance that applies to shops/ranges. I don't know what that means for ranges. Does it mean they can reopen, full stop, with no occupancy or hygiene restrictions? I don't think we're going to achieve certainty until there's a court filing (Healey needs to respond by Wednesday at noon).

I think the court can retain jurisdiction over the case and not moot it, given that the state claims it can go back on its phases at a moment's notice.
It's explicitly spelled out on the mass.gov webpage xero2099 linked to above.
Firearm retailers and shooting rangesPhase 1 – May 18

No additional comments.

I agree the case should continue because the phases can always be rolled back.
 

Boston4567

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It's explicitly spelled out on the mass.gov webpage xero2099 linked to above.
Firearm retailers and shooting rangesPhase 1 – May 18

No additional comments.

I agree the case should continue because the phases can always be rolled back.
Yeah, I see that they're open, my point is there's no conditions or guidance on opening. In theory that means they can open up immediately at full capacity.
 

Waher

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stores and ranges are part of phase one
Stores were on the 'essential' list until DeLeo took a break from the buffet to tell Charlie make a revision. Wouldn't surprise me if this guidance gets stealth revisions and 'interpretations' by Maura and merry bands of local politicized 'public health' officials.
 

Dadstoys

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Stores were on the 'essential' list until DeLeo took a break from the buffet to tell Charlie make a revision. Wouldn't surprise me if this guidance gets stealth revisions and 'interpretations' by Maura and merry bands of local politicized 'public health' officials.
Yup , that was too easy.
Waiting for the other shoe to drop.
 

pastera

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I would like to think that a stealth update closing ranges back down would cause enough judicial backlash that even Baker would be smart enough to avoid it.
 

Bladerunner

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You clearly haven't thought about this.

When I'm going to multiple stores, I put on my mask before the first one, and take it off after the last one. That means that I am, in fact, wearing a mask inside my own car when driving between the various stops. I do this because it's kind of a pain in the ass to get the mask on and positioned correctly, so taking it of and putting it on multiple times is a hassle.

Plus, every time you put on or take off a mask you have to touch your face (it's tricky to do it without touching your face) so the fewer times you do it, the better.

'course, if you believe that COVID-19 is a huge international hoax between every country's leadership and the health organizations of the world and the 80k people who have died are actually just fake news, then ... yea, do whatever you want.
I put a fresh mask on after every syllable. You can't be too cautious these days.
 
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