combination lock maintenance

[milktree]

"everyone" says you should do some preventative maintenance on your safe's mechanical combination lock, but ... I have no idea how to do that.

if it was something easier to get at when it fails (like, say, a house lock where there's other doors to get in) I'd just fake it, and fix it if I do it wrong.

But in the case of a safe, there's 1) no other way in and 2) it contains a lot of stuff I really care about that could (would) get damaged if I had to force my way in.

I found a video on youtube that suggested graphite powder, basically just flood everything that moves inside the lock.

Is graphite really the right answer? Just throw more in?

The particular "problem" I'm trying to solve is that the knob feels like it has more drag than it did when the safe was new, four years ago.

 

[greencobra]

what safe do you have?

 

[milktree]

what safe do you have?

Eastern Security, made by Dakota.

 

[looser38]

Eastern Security, made by Dakota.

Does E.S. have any suggestions?

 

[MisterHappy]

You should have a Yegg on speed-dial, just in case.

 

[greencobra]

Does E.S. have any suggestions?

yep, this is where i was going, also.

 

[greencobra]

You should have a Yegg on speed-dial, just in case.

his yegg has 2 months left in the can....his bacon is out on parole

 

[CDP235]

I have found with my safe, that if I don't have the lever pushed all the way, the knob will drag and feel like it's sticking. It's not a very expensive safe, so that may be the problem. Then again, my motto is if it doesn't move, and it's supposed to use WD-40. If it moves and it's not supposed to use duct tape. YMMV. Good luck, I hope you can fix the problem.

 

[milktree]

Does E.S. have any suggestions?

I haven't asked them!

Mostly because I was looking for the wisdom of crowds, 'cuz good answers come from crowds if you do your filtering properly, but also because I didn't want to deal with "we can send a guy"

But you're right, I should probably call them and ask. (duh)

 

[milktree]

You should have a Yegg on speed-dial, just in case.

Yegg?

 

[Glockster30]

Yegg?

Slang for a safecracker.

 

[looser38]

I have found with my safe, that if I don't have the lever pushed all the way, the knob will drag and feel like it's sticking. It's not a very expensive safe, so that may be the problem. Then again, my motto is if it doesn't move, and it's supposed to use WD-40. If it moves and it's not supposed to use duct tape. YMMV. Good luck, I hope you can fix the problem.

You're spot on with the fact that the lever needs to be in the neutral position, or it will drag on the tumbler.

 

[cathouse01]

I use this on all my locks:

3-IN-ONE 120070 Lock Dry Lube

As a dry lube it doesn’t collect dust and other contaminates. Other than that, I just leave them be.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You're spot on with the fact that the lever needs to be in the neutral position, or it will drag on the tumbler.

What lever are you referring to, and what do you mean by "tumbler". Dial combo locks have wheels, flys, gates, fences, etc. Do you mean a wheel?

There is drag on the bolt* as the mechanism when the opening lever, wheel, handle is turned as far as it will go when the container is locked as this leaves the locking mechanism in contact with the bolt. Although life would be boring without friction, now is the time to eschew rather than pursue.

This is referred to as bolt side pressure, and is not good for the lock. That goes double for electronic locks that retract the bolt rather than enable a mechanism for the user to pull the bolt back (like the old LaGard with the rotating keypad or the S&G Titan D-Drive) as it can result in excessive wear on little plastic (yetch!!!) gears.

Print this out, leave it on the top of your toilet tank, and read it the next time you are in conference: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/5825267/SargentAndGreenleaf_May2019/pdf/book_mech_locks.pdf

* - This assumes a draw bolt rather than swing bolt, the later being common only on electronic locks.

 

[looser38]

What lever are you referring to, and what do you mean by "tumbler". Dial combo locks have wheels, flys, gates, fences, etc. Do you mean a wheel?

There is drag on the bolt* as the mechanism when the opening lever, wheel, handle is turned as far as it will go when the container is locked as this leaves the locking mechanism in contact with the bolt. Although life would be boring without friction, now is the time to eschew rather than pursue.

This is referred to as bolt side pressure, and is not good for the lock. That goes double for electronic locks that retract the bolt rather than enable a mechanism for the user to pull the bolt back (like the old LaGard with the rotating keypad or the S&G Titan D-Drive) as it can result in excessive wear on little plastic (yetch!!!) gears.

Print this out, leave it on the top of your toilet tank, and read it the next time you are in conference: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/5825267/SargentAndGreenleaf_May2019/pdf/book_mech_locks.pdf

* - This assumes a draw bolt rather than swing bolt, the later being common only on electronic locks.

Call it what you want, lever, wheel, handle throw thingy, triple arm whatchamacallit, whatever the particular safe may have.
If that is NOT in the proper position, "neutral", unengaged, not trying to open, in other words, if it is engaged in the opening direction, the tumbler dial, knobby thing with the F**king numbers on it, will not spin freely, or at all.
You may have a special fancy way of saying that, or trying to say that, but bottom line is, this MAY be what OP is thinking is a lack of lubrication.
Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[milktree]

Call it what you want, lever, wheel, handle throw thingy, triple arm whatchamacallit, whatever the particular safe may have.
If that is NOT in the proper position, "neutral", unengaged, not trying to open, in other words, if it is engaged in the opening direction, the tumbler dial, knobby thing with the F**king numbers on it, will not spin freely, or at all.
You may have a special fancy way of saying that, or trying to say that, but bottom line is, this MAY be what OP is thinking is a lack of lubrication.
Of course, I could be wrong.

View attachment 406223

No, I'm talking about turning the wheel while entering the combination. No amount of pressure on the big thing that moves the locking bolts will put resistance on the combination wheel *until* you turn it backwards that last time to unlock it. (after the third number)

 

[looser38]

No, I'm talking about turning the wheel while entering the combination. No amount of pressure on the big thing that moves the locking bolts will put resistance on the combination wheel *until* you turn it backwards that last time to unlock it. (after the third number)
[/QUOTE

Edit:
Looser38 response:
I can't tell you what your safe is or is not doing, or how it operates, or doesn't operate.
But I have to disagree with you, as I have two mechanical dial safes that say you're wrong about that.
Now of course, your safe may be different, I don't know.
If I engage the opening/bolt throw device on either one of mine, one of them disables the dial completely, the other one will still turn, but with resistance, kind of a gritty feel, maybe as though it needs lubrication.
Place the bolt throw device in the neutral position, everything operates as it should, for both of them.
YMMV.

 

[milktree]

No, I'm talking about turning the wheel while entering the combination. No amount of pressure on the big thing that moves the locking bolts will put resistance on the combination wheel *until* you turn it backwards that last time to unlock it. (after the third number)

Edit:
Looser38 response:
I can't tell you what your safe is or is not doing, or how it operates, or doesn't operate.
But I have to disagree with you, as I have two mechanical dial safes that say you're wrong about that.
Now of course, your safe may be different, I don't know.
If I engage the opening/bolt throw device on either one of mine, one of them disables the dial completely, the other one will still turn, but with resistance, kind of a gritty feel, maybe as though it needs lubrication.
Place the bolt throw device in the neutral position, everything operates as it should, for both of them.
YMMV.

Are you seriously disagreeing with what my safe in my basement does? Based on... your safes?

Except for after I've entered the combination and am making the final clockwise turn to actually move the bolt that releases the main bolts:

 

[milktree]

Print this out, leave it on the top of your toilet tank, and read it the next time you are in conference: https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/5825267/SargentAndGreenleaf_May2019/pdf/book_mech_locks.pdf

I looked through that, but didn't see anything on maintenance or cleaning. Am I being blind?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Except for after I've entered the combination and am making the final clockwise turn to actually move the bolt that releases the main bolts:

This is exactly what I would expect. Prior to turning the final portion that moves the bolt, the entire happenings are inside the lock body. You might get some resistance dialing if there were end pressure on the bolt, but safe designs typically put side pressure on the bolt when you turn the opening dial/handle.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What brand safe is that? Some low end safes use an atypical mechanical linkage to the lock that has this effect (I think this may include the higher end stack-ons).

Once you have come to the last number, does the dial turn with greater resistance while you feel parts move inside (bolt retracting) or do you leave it on the last number and turn the handle? If the later, it has the lower end linkage I am thinking of.

Call it what you want, lever, wheel, handle throw thingy, triple arm whatchamacallit, whatever the particular safe may have.
If that is NOT in the proper position, "neutral", unengaged, not trying to open, in other words, if it is engaged in the opening direction, the tumbler dial, knobby thing with the F**king numbers on it, will not spin freely, or at all.
You may have a special fancy way of saying that, or trying to say that, but bottom line is, this MAY be what OP is thinking is a lack of lubrication.
Of course, I could be wrong.

View attachment 406223

 

[Marty McFly]

If you bought it new then call them to see what they say. If they used oil or grease and you add graphite it might goober it up. Just a thought

 

[Upland]

I would be careful putting anything on the lock mechanism, the only thing I would consider is graphite spray with alcohol as a carrier.
one thing I would definitely recommend is greasing the bolts and linkages, the last thing you want is any binding that would stress or bend them.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Whatever you do, do NOT adjust the wheel pack tensioner while inside the lock as it needs to be properly set to minimize attack vectors. Another big NO is inserting the combi change key with the back plate off the lock - don't do it. Ever. Unless you want to trash the lock.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I looked through that, but didn't see anything on maintenance or cleaning. Am I being blind?

Try this:

Lubrication Points for the S&G 6700 series – S&G

Important:Lubricating a mechanical lock should only be performed by a trained safe and vault technician. All parts should be wiped thoroughly clean before applying lubricant. Use a thin, almost invisible …

sargentandgreenleaf.com

.

 

[looser38]

Are you seriously disagreeing with what my safe in my basement does? Based on... your safes?

Except for after I've entered the combination and am making the final clockwise turn to actually move the bolt that releases the main bolts:

View attachment 406366

If you had paid attention to what I said, no, I cannot possibly say what YOUR safe is doing.

 

[Mtn_Guy]

Throw money at the problem and hire a professional to properly maintain it.

Explain to the guy “you’re an idiot” and was planning to spray the thing down with Pam cooking spray...(/sarc) try to watch what he does, ask questions politely and next time you won’t have to call someone.

If it were me, the first time I lock the safe after my home service job, I’d have it completely empty. Just in case that extra part I forgot to put back because I couldn’t find where it went was really needed... F-ing up your safe being cheap is one thing... locking all your high-value firearms up indefinitely is a whole other level...

 

[milktree]

If you had paid attention to what I said, no, I cannot possibly say what YOUR safe is doing.

What did you mean by this?

But I have to disagree with you, as I have two mechanical dial safes that say you're wrong about that.

What exactly was I wrong about? What do you disagree with?

 

[looser38]

I think perhaps, we are wrongly assuming that we are trying to tell each other what the other guys safe is or is not doing.
That's certainly not the case, at least on my end.
If I came across as saying that, I apologise, not what I meant.
I certainly don't know what is going on in your house, any more than you know what's going on in mine.
Fair enough?
I was only offering a suggestion, trying to be helpful.
If you know me at all, you'll know that I am not an antagonist.

 

[looser38]

What brand safe is that? Some low end safes use an atypical mechanical linkage to the lock that has this effect (I think this may include the higher end stack-ons).

Once you have come to the last number, does the dial turn with greater resistance while you feel parts move inside (bolt retracting) or do you leave it on the last number and turn the handle? If the later, it has the lower end linkage I am thinking of.

To answer your question Rob, yes, both of the safes I'm referring to, are what I would call, lower end safes.
One is a Sentry 1330, and the other is a Field & Stream 32 gun safe.
The Sentry "Dial" will lock up tight, not operable, if the opening lever is not in neutral position.

The F&S will at least feel rough/gritty, sometimes lock up tight, again, if the bolt throw device is not neutral.
I am not very knowledgeable about all the different types of safe mechanisms, just trying to explain what my experiences are with my safes.