CNN: Pilot's holsters make guns vulnerable to accidental discharge

[Coastie2010]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/12/02/tsa.holster/index.html

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Government-issued holsters used by thousands of armed airline pilots increase the chance that guns will be accidentally discharged in the cockpit, according to federal investigators.
Investigators say the design of a government-issued holster makes guns vulnerable to accidental discharges.

Investigators say the design of a government-issued holster makes guns vulnerable to accidental discharges.

The holsters' design renders guns vulnerable to accidental firing if they are improperly handled, and should be replaced, said investigators who studied an incident in March in which a pilot discharged his weapon.

They said the Transportation Security Administration -- which trains and equips the armed pilots -- should provide a safer way to secure firearms in the distracting, sometimes dark environment of a cockpit.

In March, a US Airways pilot accidentally fired his gun while he was stowing it during an approach to Charlotte/Douglas International Airport in North Carolina.

The bullet pierced the cockpit wall and fuselage, but no one was injured. No crucial wiring was struck and the plane landed safely. Video Watch CNN's Jeanne Meserve report on the holsters »

The incident is the only known gun discharge in the cockpit of a commercial airliner since the federal government began handing out the holsters in its armed program, known as Federal Flight Deck Officer.

While the exact number of armed pilots is confidential, the TSA has said there are more armed pilots than Federal Air Marshals, a number it says is in the thousands.

After the incident, the TSA removed Capt. James Langenhahn from the program. US Airways fired Langenhahn, ending his 24-year career with the carrier. Langenhahn is fighting his dismissal.

The TSA has defended the locking holsters, saying pilots have handled the holsters "millions of times" without incident since the holsters were put into service two years ago.

But the Office of Inspector General -- an independent arm of the Department of Homeland Security -- concluded the design of the locking holsters "increases the likelihood of an accidental discharge of a weapon in an aircraft cockpit."

"In a darkened cockpit, under the stress of meeting the operational needs of the aircraft, a pilot could inadvertently discharge the weapon by failing to ensure it is properly seated in the holster, securing the trigger lock and then pushing the weapon inward to secure the holster snap."

The weapon also can be discharged if the pilot inserts the padlock hasp into the holster incorrectly, the report says.

"This is encouraging. This will probably have a favorable impact in increasing the effectiveness of the [armed pilot] program and in my personal situation," Langenhahn, 56, said when informed of the OIG report on Tuesday.

Langenhahn said he expects an arbitration hearing in late January. He declined further comment, citing his attorney's advice.

The TSA on Tuesday reiterated its statements that the holsters are safe.

"When handled in accordance with FFDO program policies and procedures, the locking holster system meets program safety, security and tactical accessibility requirements," the TSA said in a written statement. "TSA works with independent subject matter experts to regularly review new holster systems that meet program safety, security and tactical accessibility requirements."

Pilots say TSA protocols, which require pilots to lock their weapons every time they leave the cockpit, greatly increase the chance of a mishap.

Mike Karn, vice president of the Federal Flight Deck Officer Association, said pilots should be trusted to unlock their guns when they leave their homes or hotels and lock them at the end of the business day.


"Common sense practices need to be put in place," Karn said.

The inspector general's recommendations on holsters were included in a semiannual report to Congress released this week.

They don't show the holster, but it's one of the most ridiculous ideas I've seen. Since the TSA hates the idea of armed pilots, they only trust them with their weapons unlocked when actually in the cockpit. When they use the toilet or are in the airport, the gun is secured by a giant brass padlock. While a marked step up from requiring them to carry a lockbox, it still requires that you keep a lock bale threaded through the trigger guard of a cocked and locked USP.

 

[maee]

Every time I go to Logan, I always pray that I am not attacked and shot in the bathroom by my airline pilot for the $20 or $30 I usually carry.

 

[Twigg]

Just who are these "instigators" er I mean, investigators ?

Terrorists should have to lock up their box cutters too.

 

[doobie]

Isn't this like OLD news, didn't they splatter this story on every news feed when that one pilot discharged his pistol in the cockpit?

 

[terraformer]

Isn't this like OLD news, didn't they splatter this story on every news feed when that one pilot discharged his pistol in the cockpit?

That was the pilot's association asserting this. Here it is a review board confirming this.

 

[M1911]

Old news. Here's a picture of the holster:

Put the hasp of a lock right through the trigger guard. Brilliant

The idiotic rear echelon !@#$@! who dreamed this up should be sentenced to 2000 hours of listening to Britney Spears and Barry Manilow.

 

[MikeH]

How stupid is this? A pilot is entrusted with the lives of hundreds of passengers and crew members. They are entrusted with the care and safe operating of multi-million dollar pieces of machinery. Yet, they can't be trusted to properly handle a normal holstered handgun!

 

[the_doctor]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/12/02/tsa.holster/index.html



They don't show the holster, but it's one of the most ridiculous ideas I've seen. Since the TSA hates the idea of armed pilots, they only trust them with their weapons unlocked when actually in the cockpit. When they use the toilet or are in the airport, the gun is secured by a giant brass padlock. While a marked step up from requiring them to carry a lockbox, it still requires that you keep a lock bale threaded through the trigger guard of a cocked and locked USP.

Isn't it the holster? They use DA handguns with a lock through the triggerguard area. There is a claim that the pilot did not insert the gun completely into the holster, which caused his ND while locking the gun.

bill

 

[Viper22]

I saw this news bit yesterday at the gym. All I could do is shake my head when I saw the holster setup, with the padlock hooked through the triggerguard.

Isn't this what triggerlocks are made for???

 

[M1911]

I saw this news bit yesterday at the gym. All I could do is shake my head when I saw the holster setup, with the padlock hooked through the triggerguard.

Isn't this what triggerlocks are made for???

No. You can't use a trigger lock on a loaded gun. Putting a trigger lock on a loaded gun would be just as stupid as locking one in that holster -- both involve putting a bar through the trigger guard.

 

[offcamber]

Old news. Here's a picture of the holster:

Put the hasp of a lock right through the trigger guard. Brilliant

The idiotic rear echelon !@#$@! who dreamed this up should be sentenced to 2000 hours of listening to Britney Spears and Barry Manilow.

Wow thats the stupidest design I have ever seen......your tax dollars at work

 

[Len-2A Training]

TSA has to be one of the biggest "brain trusts" in the world . . . NOT!

Every firearms instructor will tell you to keep EVERYTHING OUT of the triggerguard on a loaded gun . . . but TSA "knows" better. Jim and Sarah Brady must be their "subject matter experts"!

 

[law dawg]

This is what the FFDO's wanted. Prior to this they had to put their guns in lock boxes, which they hated. This was the proposal to eliminate the lock box and one they signed off on.

Right, wrong or indifferent the FFDO only has carry authorization in the flight deck of the plane. For them to carry outside of there they are under state law, which means they have no CWP for the majority of the places they fly to.

In essence, they have no carry authority but are given a very limited on by the US Government for the purpose of their job. Outside of that, they have to play by the rules as do other people.

 

[cyberlogicx]

When I first saw that holster, I honestly thought it was a joke and a really good Photoshop. When I realized it was real, I actually felt a chill go up my spine...

 

[BillO]

This is what the FFDO's wanted. Prior to this they had to put their guns in lock boxes, which they hated. This was the proposal to eliminate the lock box and one they signed off on.

Right, wrong or indifferent the FFDO only has carry authorization in the flight deck of the plane. For them to carry outside of there they are under state law, which means they have no CWP for the majority of the places they fly to.

In essence, they have no carry authority but are given a very limited on by the US Government for the purpose of their job. Outside of that, they have to play by the rules as do other people.

It was a better choice than the lock box, but the only people that saw this coming were pilots with firearms experience. The lock is designed to be inserted BEHIND the trigger. However, if it is locked in front of the trigger (only possible if the gun was not all the way into the holster) and the gun is later pushed all the way into the holster; boom. VERY bad design. No surprises here. It was going to happen sooner or later.

 

[M1911]

It was going to happen sooner or later.

Agreed. That holster is an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Secesh]

When I first saw that holster, I honestly thought it was a joke and a really good Photoshop. When I realized it was real, I actually felt a chill go up my spine...

+1

 

[Negotiator]

When I first saw that holster, I honestly thought it was a joke and a really good Photoshop. When I realized it was real, I actually felt a chill go up my spine...

That design was obviously thought ( that is a stretch) up by someone in TSA who knows absolutely nothing about firearms and firearm safety. Putting anything in the trigger guard area on a loaded firearm is insane, unless it's your finger with the gun on the target.

Boneheads.

 

[law dawg]

It was a better choice than the lock box, but the only people that saw this coming were pilots with firearms experience. The lock is designed to be inserted BEHIND the trigger. However, if it is locked in front of the trigger (only possible if the gun was not all the way into the holster) and the gun is later pushed all the way into the holster; boom. VERY bad design. No surprises here. It was going to happen sooner or later.

So what's the solution, then? What way is there to satisfy the law and yet still be functional and safe?

 

[M1911]

So what's the solution, then? What way is there to satisfy the law and yet still be functional and safe?

As I understand it, the goal is to have a holster that can be locked when the officer leaves the flight deck, but unlocked while on the flight deck.

The problem with the current design is that the lock hasp goes through the trigger guard. An alternative would be a design that locks behind the slide -- something along the lines of the Safariland ALS holster, with a lock that keeps the hood in place behind the slide.

 

[law dawg]

As I understand it, the goal is to have a holster that can be locked when the officer leaves the flight deck, but unlocked while on the flight deck.

The problem with the current design is that the lock hasp goes through the trigger guard. An alternative would be a design that locks behind the slide -- something along the lines of the Safariland ALS holster, with a lock that keeps the hood in place behind the slide.

Is that something that can be put on and off quickly without having to manipulate the pistol? I think that was one of the qualifications. You don't really want to pull your pistol out of it's holster at 35,000 ft. so you can go to the lav.

 

[BillO]

So what's the solution, then? What way is there to satisfy the law and yet still be functional and safe?

Functional and safe? Something different with KNOWLEDGEABLE people making design decisions. This design has already ruined the 24year career this guy had with the airline, not that he's completely blameless. I think that, in light of this report, someone might have the sense to re-design this holster.

 

[LT1MCSS]

That is the stupidest design I have ever seen.

 

[Chuck]

Or why not just adopt one of the many lawsuit induced pistols that have built-in locks?

Personally I feel with the security background checks we all have to pass and the training these particular pilots have gone through they should just get a federal license so they could CCW everywhere.

Just another big stupid cause-more-problems-then-it-solves "solution" from TSA/Fatherland Security.

 

[law dawg]

Functional and safe? Something different with KNOWLEDGEABLE people making design decisions. This design has already ruined the 24year career this guy had with the airline, not that he's completely blameless. I think that, in light of this report, someone might have the sense to re-design this holster.

I'm no fan of this holster, but there are considerations that have to be met as well. I would like to see something that could meet those requirements yet not enable a nice hole in the fuselage.

 

[M1911]

Is that something that can be put on and off quickly without having to manipulate the pistol? I think that was one of the qualifications. You don't really want to pull your pistol out of it's holster at 35,000 ft. so you can go to the lav.

It could be. A set of loops for the lock hasp would need to be built into the holster in front of the hood to hold the lock. When you get ready to leave the cockpit, put the lock hasp through the two loops. When you get back into the cockpit, remove the lock. Gun stays in the holster the entire time and the lock hasp is nowhere near the trigger guard. Downside of this approach is that if you cut through the holster somehow, then you have a functional gun.

An advantage of the current design is that even if you cut through the holster, the lock hasp is still behind the trigger, preventing the gun from being fired.

 

[law dawg]

It could be. A set of loops for the lock hasp would need to be built into the holster in front of the hood to hold the lock. When you get ready to leave the cockpit, put the lock hasp through the two loops. When you get back into the cockpit, remove the lock. Gun stays in the holster the entire time and the lock hasp is nowhere near the trigger guard. Downside of this approach is that if you cut through the holster somehow, then you have a functional gun.

An advantage of the current design is that even if you cut through the holster, the lock hasp is still behind the trigger, preventing the gun from being fired.

That sounds much better! Thanks.

 

[sig shooter]

why have a lock at all? and how is the pilot supposed to draw if need be even if he's off the flight deck?

 

[icyclefar]

I don't get it..........

Obviously the holster design is flawed if you can create the discharge situation. If the requirement is to have the weapon secured when the pilot leaves the cockpit then why would a lock box be undesirable? Is the guy carrying with the pad lock installed?

 

[M1911]

why have a lock at all? and how is the pilot supposed to draw if need be even if he's off the flight deck?

He's not supposed to draw if he's off the flight deck. The only purpose of the gun is defend the flight deck. If he's off the flight deck and gets jumped by terrorists, they don't want the terrorists to be able to get the gun.