CMP Article Regarding Reloads for Match Shooting

[Mountain]

Just read this article regarding Team CMP competition loads and thought worth passing along:

Reloading: Thoughts on Finding the Perfect Load and Volume Production - Civilian Marksmanship Program

The author's process is pretty close to mine for CMP vintage matches and the occasional high power. With a turret press, a few reloading trays, and a good system- productivity isn't that bad and sub-moa loads can be chunked out quickly with good flowing powder. Maybe I'm missing out but I may never go to a progressive press for rifle match loads.

 

[mac1911]

Just read this article regarding Team CMP competition loads and thought worth passing along:

Reloading: Thoughts on Finding the Perfect Load and Volume Production - Civilian Marksmanship Program

The author's process is pretty close to mine for CMP vintage matches and the occasional high power. With a turret press, a few reloading trays, and a good system- productivity isn't that bad and sub-moa loads can be chunked out quickly with good flowing powder. Maybe I'm missing out but I may never go to a progressive press for rifle match loads.

i have a few pro 1000s for the bulk 223, 45 acp and 30 carbine
all others are loaded on the 007 press.

As noted from that article......I do about the same for my 200 yard AR loads. I think if II ran those tossed together 69s through something with a scope they would be moa or even better.?
Again im basically loading for 200 yards and a 3moa 10 ring.....im not holding much better than that

 

[Mountain]

i have a few pro 1000s for the bulk 223, 45 acp and 30 carbine
all others are loaded on the 007 press.

As noted from that article......I do about the same for my 200 yard AR loads. I think if II ran those tossed together 69s through something with a scope they would be moa or even better.?
Again im basically loading for 200 yards and a 3moa 10 ring.....im not holding much better than that

All the milsurp match stuff is another story. Hardware and technique become much bigger variables, almost dominating accuracy potential vs. load development. Heavy barrel match AR's make accuracy easy. Take one of your better 1:7-ish completed barrels (Compass Lake, White Oak, Wilson) etc. from the better blank sources (Satern, Krieger, Douglas, etc.) and with minimal load development it's not that difficult to reach MOA accuracy off the bench with a scope.

Regarding powders, I eventually migrated to Benchmark for my .223 match loads. Equally because it provides great accuracy and because it flows like water. That makes it easy to load a bunch of cases quickly as suggested by the article. As @mac1911 , for large bore match loads I typically use just about any powder so long as it begins with 'Var' and ends with 'get'. I get great results in almost all of my milsurp CMP match rifles with Varget, but it is a slight PITA to drop consistently enough for my taste. I recently decided to try burning up some odd powders I have in stock and rediscovered 2520 for .308. It flows almost as nicely as Benchmark and is very accurate in my Garand National Match clone. Sighting it in with the 'new' 2520 loads, last 3 shots are the ones around the X. I think the one 12:00 high in the white is a stray from an AR upper I slapped together.

 

[TrashcanDan]

I didn't see any mention of playing around with length to tighten groups up.
Must load as long as the mag allows?

 

[mac1911]

I didn't see any mention of playing around with length to tighten groups up.
Must load as long as the mag allows?

They mention usung 77 grain bullets those can be loaded to mag length.
The 80, 82 and 90s some use for 600 slow fire prone need to be single loaded.
I just ran a small batch of 80 gn Noslers , my barrel comes in at 2.52” using the hornady OAL tool , touching the lands. I did a quick test.
Nosler had a minimum seating depth of 2.36” for their bullet.
I ran 10 rounds each of 2.36, 2.40 and 2.45”
2.36 showed promise, 2.45” showed some flat primers.

 

[Mountain]

I didn't see any mention of playing around with length to tighten groups up.
Must load as long as the mag allows?

I didn't see any mention of playing around with length to tighten groups up.
Must load as long as the mag allows?

For rapid fire stages, of course mag length is the limit. Doesn't make a huge difference at 200 yards but at 600 it helps to fine tune the OAL for those single loads.

 

[mac1911]

All the milsurp match stuff is another story. Hardware and technique become much bigger variables, almost dominating accuracy potential vs. load development. Heavy barrel match AR's make accuracy easy. Take one of your better 1:7-ish completed barrels (Compass Lake, White Oak, Wilson) etc. from the better blank sources (Satern, Krieger, Douglas, etc.) and with minimal load development it's not that difficult to reach MOA accuracy off the bench with a scope.

Regarding powders, I eventually migrated to Benchmark for my .223 match loads. Equally because it provides great accuracy and because it flows like water. That makes it easy to load a bunch of cases quickly as suggested by the article. As @mac1911 , for large bore match loads I typically use just about any powder so long as it begins with 'Var' and ends with 'get'. I get great results in almost all of my milsurp CMP match rifles with Varget, but it is a slight PITA to drop consistently enough for my taste. I recently decided to try burning up some odd powders I have in stock and rediscovered 2520 for .308. It flows almost as nicely as Benchmark and is very accurate in my Garand National Match clone. Sighting it in with the 'new' 2520 loads, last 3 shots are the ones around the X. I think the one 12:00 high in the white is a stray from an AR upper I slapped together.

I have a old timer who keeps putting AA2250 in my ear. I was going to buy a jug when I was 1/2 through my H4895 , with the even more lack of range time i have not burned through the H4895.

he says AA2250 has a huge OCW zone and you can really squeeze some velocity out of the 75+ grain bullets and stay a bit lower in chamber pressures.

 

[Mountain]

I have a old timer who keeps putting AA2250 in my ear. I was going to buy a jug when I was 1/2 through my H4895 , with the even more lack of range time i have not burned through the H4895.

he says AA2250 has a huge OCW zone and you can really squeeze some velocity out of the 75+ grain bullets and stay a bit lower in chamber pressures.

Somehow my post deleted "as mac1911 knows...".

Since 2520 is cheaper and meters better, guess I'm OK going outside the box of my usual powder.

Is there a 2250 powder or is that a lefty dyslexic 2520?

 

[TrashcanDan]

So after reading it, I wondered why the 600 yd load wasn't effective for the 200 yd target.
I suppose if its restricted to mag length for rapid fire then it probably really limits what you can stretch out at.
I always figured there was a "one load do-all", not one for 200 and one for 600.
Now that optics are allowed (its about time) I'll have to look into the c.m.p. again.

 

[mac1911]

Somehow my post deleted "as mac1911 knows...".

Since 2520 is cheaper and meters better, guess I'm OK going outside the box of my usual powder.

Is there a 2250 powder or is that a lefty dyslexic 2520?

Yup leftdyslexfatthumbblinditis

 

[mac1911]

So after reading it, I wondered why the 600 yd load wasn't effective for the 200 yd target.
I suppose if its restricted to mag length for rapid fire then it probably really limits what you can stretch out at.
I always figured there was a "one load do-all", not one for 200 and one for 600.
Now that optics are allowed (its about time) I'll have to look into the c.m.p. again.

If im running NRA service rifle XTC im running 75-77s at mag length for 200/300/600. I cant be bothered trying to remember what ammo I have or my zeros, my rifle I use for service rifle is dialed in for 77s and the come ups are marked on my sights.
I torture myself enough with the ammo dance for cmp games.

 

[PatMcD]

The 77 TMK's can be loaded as one for all ranges. Actually the 77 Sierra MK's were fine that way for the service teams for years. I've always had 2 loads: Sierra or Nosler 77's at 2-300 yards, and Sierra, Nosler 80's (or Berger 82's) for 600. Same powder charge for both. Seat the 80-82's out of course.

I load everything on a Dillon 650. I ain't got time to load 2-4000 rds (depending on how many matches I shot in a season) on a single stage.

 

[Mountain]

So after reading it, I wondered why the 600 yd load wasn't effective for the 200 yd target.
I suppose if its restricted to mag length for rapid fire then it probably really limits what you can stretch out at.
I always figured there was a "one load do-all", not one for 200 and one for 600.
Now that optics are allowed (its about time) I'll have to look into the c.m.p. again.

As far as I know, only CMP High Power and Vintage Sniper allow optics. Don't get me going on CMP Modern Military rules which change with the weather.

600 yard loads typically use heavier, longer projectiles that must be loaded longer than what will fit in a mag. The rapid stages at 200 and 300 for obvious reasons require loads that fit mags. Shorter, lighter projectiles are AOK at the closer distances too. You could certainly use say 77's at 600 but would miss out on the better aerodynamics of 80's.

 

[mac1911]

As far as I know, only CMP High Power and Vintage Sniper allow optics. Don't get me going on CMP Modern Military rules which change with the weather.

600 yard loads typically use heavier, longer projectiles that must be loaded longer than what will fit in a mag. The rapid stages at 200 and 300 for obvious reasons require loads that fit mags. Shorter, lighter projectiles are AOK at the closer distances too. You could certainly use say 77's at 600 but would miss out on the better aerodynamics of 80's.

I dont think I hold well enough or read the wind well enough to see that much of a gain. In the black somewhere is a good day

 

[Road_Clam]

I like Nos 69 CC's for 200 and 300 and I run 80 CC's for 600 yds. Only reason I load 69's is the fact I have about 5000 seconds that I bought years ago from Shooters Pro Shop and they fly perfect . I shoot 600 yds frequently at Pelham and the multi-directional wind at 600 yds can be a frustrating PIA to try and read, and i'm by no means an expert. Don't know if you guys have ever tried Alliant 2000MR , but back in the 2013 powder panic I found an 8# Keg at my LGS and it actually works great in AR gas guns. It's my go-to backup powder to Varget. I tried Benchmark, and it did work excellent for 52 or 55 gr bullets, but I didn't have any luck loading the heavier 77's+.

 

[mac1911]

I like Nos 69 CC's for 200 and 300 and I run 80 CC's for 600 yds. Only reason I load 69's is the fact I have about 5000 seconds that I bought years ago from Shooters Pro Shop and they fly perfect . I shoot 600 yds frequently at Pelham and the multi-directional wind at 600 yds can be a frustrating PIA to try and read, and i'm by no means an expert. Don't know if you guys have ever tried Alliant 2000MR , but back in the 2013 powder panic I found an 8# Keg at my LGS and it actually works great in AR gas guns. It's my go-to backup powder to Varget. I tried Benchmark, and it did work excellent for 52 or 55 gr bullets, but I didn't have any luck loading the heavier 77's+.

burning through 69s myself for 100/200 yard matches.

 

[dcmdon]

i have a few pro 1000s for the bulk 223, 45 acp and 30 carbine
all others are loaded on the 007 press.

As noted from that article......I do about the same for my 200 yard AR loads. I think if II ran those tossed together 69s through something with a scope they would be moa or even better.?
Again im basically loading for 200 yards and a 3moa 10 ring.....im not holding much better than that

I have loaded match .223 on a Dillon 550 using the Dillon powder drop and Dillon dies.

I have also loaded match .223 on my lee classic cast using redding competition dies and weighing every charge.

The only real difference between the two is the standard deviation in MV is lower on the hand weighed stuff. This makes essentially no difference out to 200 yards.

In theory the difference in the vertical spread starts to open up from there, but the farthest I shoot with any regularity is 300 yards so even then its not that different.

On the other side of the equation is the fact that the total time to make a round of .223 isn't that much different between the Dillon and the Lee, simply because most of the time is in case prep, not the actual reloading.

 

[TrashcanDan]

As far as I know, only CMP High Power and Vintage Sniper allow optics. Don't get me going on CMP Modern Military rules which change with the weather.

Yea, I don't know the exact page or section. I think it applies to service rifle. Just saw it recently and said its about goddam time.
The older gen acog's were becoming standard issue back in 93. Might have been only 1 or 2X magnification on it.
.

 

[mac1911]

I have loaded match .223 on a Dillon 550 using the Dillon powder drop and Dillon dies.

I have also loaded match .223 on my lee classic cast using redding competition dies and weighing every charge.

The only real difference between the two is the standard deviation in MV is lower on the hand weighed stuff. This makes essentially no difference out to 200 yards.

In theory the difference in the vertical spread starts to open up from there, but the farthest I shoot with any regularity is 300 yards so even then its not that different.

On the other side of the equation is the fact that the total time to make a round of .223 isn't that much different between the Dillon and the Lee, simply because most of the time is in case prep, not the actual reloading.

Like I say im not dropping X count because of SD.
Heck I can get 1 moa groups just never in the X ring. My eyes/ lighting/hold will deviate more than my SD.!
Fun stuff.

 

[Mountain]

Like I say im not dropping X count because of SD.
Heck I can get 1 moa groups just never in the X ring. My eyes/ lighting/hold will deviate more than my SD.!
Fun stuff.

You know that stuff is all cumulative?

 

[PatMcD]

For another perspective, read Konrad's method of loading. He's a past winner of the P100 Match, so his opinion is not to be taken lightly. I'll save you the time in case you don't want to read it: he loads everything on a Dillon 550.

My journal of Highpower Rifle Competition

 

[PatMcD]

Konrad's mantra is "Mental focus, not equipment hocus-pocus". What he means is; go load a shit-ton of halfway decent ammo and get out there and shoot. I've followed that advice since I started. If it shoots inside an inch, I'm loading up a ton of it. There's no need to chase that extra 1/8 moa you might find by changing powders, bullets, etc. I can load up the best ammo in the world, but when I flinch off a shot when the sights are in the 8-ring, that great ammo didn't matter.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Thats an interesting read.

 

[dcmdon]

Pat, I would guess that part of the equation in reloading while maximizing accuracy with a Dillon 550 is selecting a powder that is friendly to volume based metering. Ideally something with a small grain.

Mac - a few years ago I was thinking of getting a new upper for my service rifle match gun. On a whim, I used an old carry handle scope mount that I had lying around and padded up the stock about 3 inches. Then I installed a high quality 6-24x56 scope on it and shot it with my handloads.

The AVERAGE of 5- 5 shot groups was .8 inches. We're talking averages. Not cherry picked 3 shot groups. Suffice to say I decided against replacing the upper.

 

[PatMcD]

Pat, I would guess that part of the equation in reloading while maximizing accuracy with a Dillon 550 is selecting a powder that is friendly to volume based metering. Ideally something with a small grain.

Mac - a few years ago I was thinking of getting a new upper for my service rifle match gun. On a whim, I used an old carry handle scope mount that I had lying around and padded up the stock about 3 inches. Then I installed a high quality 6-24x56 scope on it and shot it with my handloads.

The AVERAGE of 5- 5 shot groups was .8 inches. We're talking averages. Not cherry picked 3 shot groups. Suffice to say I decided against replacing the upper.

There are some easy modifications you can do to a Dillon powder die. Run a 1/2" tapered reamer down into it, and then polish it. It will throw most of the popular 223 stick powders with great accuracy: Varget, RE15, 8208, 4895, etc.. Something like 4064 is never going to meter well. It's like shoving lincoln logs down the funnel.

 

[mac1911]

Pat, I would guess that part of the equation in reloading while maximizing accuracy with a Dillon 550 is selecting a powder that is friendly to volume based metering. Ideally something with a small grain.

Mac - a few years ago I was thinking of getting a new upper for my service rifle match gun. On a whim, I used an old carry handle scope mount that I had lying around and padded up the stock about 3 inches. Then I installed a high quality 6-24x56 scope on it and shot it with my handloads.

The AVERAGE of 5- 5 shot groups was .8 inches. We're talking averages. Not cherry picked 3 shot groups. Suffice to say I decided against replacing the upper.

Nice, I have a carry handle pic rail mount and will sometimes dig it out to check loads once in a while.
I just had some issues with my cmp Modern Military AR that I run for cmp.
Its a purpose built loaner/beater/cmp upper. Its been abused and mistreated force fed some serious crap ammo.....it would shoot sub 3moa with irons on all but the worst lots of M193 . Wolf and tula was iffy also. Before Cmp games MM it was fed a steady diet of steel . Then I cleaned it up , cut off some weight and it became my cmp gun. Well it shot fine for a few years. I shot it in cmp last in 2019 and it shot well enough until I tamked in off hand with something like a 67. Mid to late 2019 it was fed some of that zinc jacketed tula. I let a friend shoot it at local 100 yd nra shoot. This year i brought it out to test check my zero and test the 69s.
I had some problems, bore scoped it and found some zinc/copper fouling around 12” from the chamber going down the center of the groove? Odd?
Best I can think is that zinc stuck to a somewhat high spot on in the groove. Any how I cleaned it up. Loaded up some 69s with a random charge if BLC2 and right back to business. Other than 2 shots I shot high it did about as good as I deliver

 

[mac1911]

I have loaded match .223 on a Dillon 550 using the Dillon powder drop and Dillon dies.

I have also loaded match .223 on my lee classic cast using redding competition dies and weighing every charge.

The only real difference between the two is the standard deviation in MV is lower on the hand weighed stuff. This makes essentially no difference out to 200 yards.

In theory the difference in the vertical spread starts to open up from there, but the farthest I shoot with any regularity is 300 yards so even then its not that different.

On the other side of the equation is the fact that the total time to make a round of .223 isn't that much different between the Dillon and the Lee, simply because most of the time is in case prep, not the actual reloading.

There used to be a old video on reloading and David Tubb was the host. He was explaining how he loaded the palma team match ammo on a progressive press . It was old as the end of the video it was offered on
VHS also
This is it was. On you tube for a while about 6 years ago
,Amazon product ASIN B007AUQPH0View: https://www.amazon.com/Highpower-Rifle-Reloading-David-Tubb/dp/B007AUQPH0

 

[mac1911]

Pat, I would guess that part of the equation in reloading while maximizing accuracy with a Dillon 550 is selecting a powder that is friendly to volume based metering. Ideally something with a small grain.

Mac - a few years ago I was thinking of getting a new upper for my service rifle match gun. On a whim, I used an old carry handle scope mount that I had lying around and padded up the stock about 3 inches. Then I installed a high quality 6-24x56 scope on it and shot it with my handloads.

The AVERAGE of 5- 5 shot groups was .8 inches. We're talking averages. Not cherry picked 3 shot groups. Suffice to say I decided against replacing the upper.

Nice,

 

[Road_Clam]

Something like 4064 is never going to meter well. It's like shoving lincoln logs down the funnel.

Amen to this. I tried for about a year to throw 4064 through my RCBS Uniflow , and it's like chopping matchsticks. Finally bought the RCBS Chargemaster 1500 combo and life with 4064 was so happy. A few months ago my CM1500's scale took a dump and doesn't work. RCBS says "no warranty for you " on this particular item. So currently back to unhappy. Not sure if i'm going to get another electronic auto scale. My CM1500 only lasted 5 years. Not impressed, never really was fond of the 1500 as it had several negatives with overall operation, but it was accurate.

 

[dcmdon]

I use 4064 for my long range 308 loads.

I use a Lee Classic cast turret with Redding match dies I use a RCBS chargemaster for the full charge.

It works. My SD over 5 shots is 3 fps.