CMP 1911s not selling to MA in 2021

PappyM3

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CMP is having another round of 1911 sales from January to March next year.

Since they only ship to 01/02/07 FFLs, they had instituted a “No MA” policy because dealers couldn’t transfer them.

With the new law allowing dealers to transfer C&R guns to C&R holders, CMP was asked if they would change their policy in January to sell to MA C&R holders through 01/02/07 FFLs.

They are saying they won’t change their policy because it is not fair to the rest of the non-C&R MA residents. It is apparently not fair to sell to any lawful buyer, but rather it is more fair to exclude lawful buyers merely because of their state of residence.

Perhaps if we have enough people contacting them, they might reconsider their policy.
 
These 1911's don't meet the exemption of 940 CMR 16.00 as they were not manufactured for retail sale.

Where in the new 2021 law does it say a C&R has to have been manufactured for retail sale?

MGL Ch140 §131E:
“A firearms collector, licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 923(b), may purchase a rifle, shotgun or firearm that was not previously owned or registered in the commonwealth from a dealer licensed under section 122 if that rifle, shotgun or firearm is a curio or relic as defined in 27 CFR 478.11.
 
This frustrates me as well but I understand why CMP doesn’t want to deal with the extra red tape. One more thing I chalk up to choosing to live in a shit state

There is minimal red tape. Just say MA buyers must have a C&R, but that the dealer still needs to run a NICS check just like C&R holders in any other state (CMP requires two NICS checks).

Plus, their reasoning is one of fairness, not red tape.
 
Where in the new 2021 law does it say a C&R has to have been manufactured for retail sale?

MGL Ch140 §131E:
“A firearms collector, licensed pursuant to 18 U.S.C. 923(b), may purchase a rifle, shotgun or firearm that was not previously owned or registered in the commonwealth from a dealer licensed under section 122 if that rifle, shotgun or firearm is a curio or relic as defined in 27 CFR 478.11.
It doesn't. The prohibition is in 940 CMR 16.00.
 
And I think I heard they won’t ship to a free state dealer either. Then that dealer ships to a MA dealer.
I think I heard they’re only shipping to dealers in the state you reside in which cancels that option.
 
They are saying they won’t change their policy because it is not fair to the rest of the non-C&R MA residents. It is apparently not fair to sell to any lawful buyer, but rather it is more fair to exclude lawful buyers merely because of their state of residence.
That's like a company that told its members there would be no 401K match because it was not fair to the employees who could not afford to contribute. (not my employer, thankfully, but I did see it happen).
Plus, their reasoning is one of fairness, not red tape.
I doubt it. This smells like ex post facto reasoning offered only to have something to say to customers.

It's like when Comcast states they are charging for high volume internet use to be fair, instead of just saying "this is the profit maximizing strategy", or a business says it is requiring ID "for your protection".

The real reason is probably "We don't want to deal with figuring the nuances of gun laws in your pissant state because we have plenty of customers for a sellout without that hassle".
 
The 2021 law bypasses 940 CMR 16.00 requirements for C&R guns to C&R holders. That was its specific purpose.
The law makes exemptions to the requirements of the approved firearms roster. 940 CMR 16.00 doesn't apply to guns made before 10/01/1998 for retail sale. Do you have a citation you can share?
 
The law makes exemptions to the requirements of the approved firearms roster. 940 CMR 16.00 doesn't apply to guns made before 10/01/1998 for retail sale. Do you have a citation you can share?

I cited the law. It specifically allows dealers to sell C&R guns to C&R holders. It doesn’t mention the firearm rosters or 940 CMR. It just supersedes them. An AG’s consumer protection rules do not supersede MGL.
 
I cited the law. It specifically allows dealers to sell C&R guns to C&R holders. It doesn’t mention the firearm rosters or 940 CMR. It just supersedes them. An AG’s consumer protection rules do not supersede MGL.
The change in C.140 section 131 is statute and is not inclusive of 940 CMR 16.00. It's moot for now, mostly. The Relics portion requires a gun to be at least 50 years old. So my understanding is a MA dealer will be able to bring in all the "older" handguns from out of state and sell them to a LTC/03 holder as long as the handgun wasn't a war relic.
 
That's like a company that told its members there would be no 401K match because it was not fair to the employees who could not afford to contribute. (not my employer, thankfully, but I did see it happen).

I doubt it. This smells like ex post facto reasoning offered only to have something to say to customers.

It's like when Comcast states they are charging for high volume internet use to be fair, instead of just saying "this is the profit maximizing strategy", or a business says it is requiring ID "for your protection".

The real reason is probably "We don't want to deal with figuring the nuances of gun laws in your pissant state because we have plenty of customers for a sellout without that hassle".

Possibly true, but they did sort through CA law to identify that the sales meet their curios and relics definition.
 
The change in C.140 section 131 is statute and is not inclusive of 940 CMR 16.00. It's moot for now, mostly. The Relics portion requires a gun to be at least 50 years old. So my understanding is a MA dealer will be able to bring in all the "older" handguns from out of state and sell them to a LTC/03 holder as long as the handgun wasn't a war relic.

You seem to be making up extra restrictions. The new law says dealers can sell C&R guns to C&R holders. Full stop. Obviously, a dealer can decide not to transfer because they’re weary of things. But let’s not just default to more restrictions. I understand MA tries to condition people to er towards obeying more rules than there actually are, but we should push back on that.
 
The rules the CMP has in place are actually at the behest of the Army. The Army required that the CMP ship the 1911’s to dealers and that the dealers must transfer them to the buyer using the 4473. This means two background checks- one by the CMP before shipping, the other by the dealer. Their guns, their rules.

If they shipped to a MA dealer and the MA dealer transferred to a C&R there would be no way to really require the second background check.

The CMP is not going to risk pissing off the Army- who gives them all of the Garands, 1903’s, 1903a3’s, Krags, and 1911’s that they continue to receive.
 
You seem to be making up extra restrictions. The new law says dealers can sell C&R guns to C&R holders. Full stop. Obviously, a dealer can decide not to transfer because they’re weary of things. But let’s not just default to more restrictions. I understand MA tries to condition people to er towards obeying more rules than there actually are, but we should push back on that.
@JGreen is doing a very poor job of explaining but it does not mean he is wrong. MA dealers have two sets of restrictions on them. The first is MGL and mostly chap 140 sec 123 but other parts of chap 140 also. The law change that takes effect on 1/1/21 eliminates the barriers in MGL chap 140 that recognize 03 FFLs.

The other source of restrictions on MA dealers is 940CMR16. This is promulgated by the attorney general is is based on consumer safety laws, specifically chap 93a sec 2c. This CMR has many restrictions that are a royal pain in the ass. The language @JGreen is referencing is this

(1) 940 CMR 16.03 and 16.05(2) and (3) shall not apply to the transfer of (or offer to transfer) any handgun that previously has been sold at retail to a consumer and that was manufactured prior to the enforcement date for those provisions.

This is the exemption for guns manufactured prior to a date in late 1998. 16.03 is the serial number requirement, 16.05(2) is the 5 year old rule and 16.05(3) is the LCI or mag disconnect rule. Since the 1911s from CMP were never sold at retail prior the dealer is not exempt from these rules. That does not mean they are not transferable. The first two are no issue. The last one will depend on whether there is some sort of loaded chamber indicator in the 1911; specificity is there a hole drilled in the back of the barrel above the feed ramp where you can see a round if loaded. If yes then ok to transfer. If no then a violation of 940CMR16.

Having not seen a CMP 1911 I don’t know if they have a LCI.
 
The rules the CMP has in place are actually at the behest of the Army. The Army required that the CMP ship the 1911’s to dealers and that the dealers must transfer them to the buyer using the 4473. This means two background checks- one by the CMP before shipping, the other by the dealer. Their guns, their rules.

If they shipped to a MA dealer and the MA dealer transferred to a C&R there would be no way to really require the second background check.

The CMP is not going to risk pissing off the Army- who gives them all of the Garands, 1903’s, 1903a3’s, Krags, and 1911’s that they continue to receive.

I am not sure I follow your logic. Making an ffl do the final transfer does not mean a 4473 in all cases. It requires that the ffl follow federal law for the transfer. Even in a free state if a 03 holder shows up it will be a ffl to ffl transfer to the end customer with no background check. Similarly there are many Brady background check exemptions. Look at Permanent Brady Permit Chart | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Presentation of a Texas concealer carry permit is all that is needed for the purchase of a firearm in Texas. No real time background check.

So multiple scenarios exist already where no background check is run by FFL. Their reasons are otherwise. I suspect they called the AG and were told NO or something similar. Or it is just the general hate of MA and it’s crap.
 
@JGreen is doing a very poor job of explaining but it does not mean he is wrong. MA dealers have two sets of restrictions on them. The first is MGL and mostly chap 140 sec 123 but other parts of chap 140 also. The law change that takes effect on 1/1/21 eliminates the barriers in MGL chap 140 that recognize 03 FFLs.

The other source of restrictions on MA dealers is 940CMR16. This is promulgated by the attorney general is is based on consumer safety laws, specifically chap 93a sec 2c. This CMR has many restrictions that are a royal pain in the ass. The language @JGreen is referencing is this

(1) 940 CMR 16.03 and 16.05(2) and (3) shall not apply to the transfer of (or offer to transfer) any handgun that previously has been sold at retail to a consumer and that was manufactured prior to the enforcement date for those provisions.

This is the exemption for guns manufactured prior to a date in late 1998. 16.03 is the serial number requirement, 16.05(2) is the 5 year old rule and 16.05(3) is the LCI or mag disconnect rule. Since the 1911s from CMP were never sold at retail prior the dealer is not exempt from these rules. That does not mean they are not transferable. The first two are no issue. The last one will depend on whether there is some sort of loaded chamber indicator in the 1911; specificity is there a hole drilled in the back of the barrel above the feed ramp where you can see a round if loaded. If yes then ok to transfer. If no then a violation of 940CMR16.

Having not seen a CMP 1911 I don’t know if they have a LCI.

I understand, but I appreciate the explanation and it is great for others too.

The point I’m trying to make is that it seems like the CMR does not apply to C&R guns when being sold to a C&R holder given the verbiage of the new law.

If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong though. Perhaps the new law really does just apply to the rosters. In which case the new law is even a crappier compromise than originally thought.
 
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The rules the CMP has in place are actually at the behest of the Army. The Army required that the CMP ship the 1911’s to dealers and that the dealers must transfer them to the buyer using the 4473. This means two background checks- one by the CMP before shipping, the other by the dealer. Their guns, their rules.

If they shipped to a MA dealer and the MA dealer transferred to a C&R there would be no way to really require the second background check.

The CMP is not going to risk pissing off the Army- who gives them all of the Garands, 1903’s, 1903a3’s, Krags, and 1911’s that they continue to receive.

That is somewhat true. The part that is not true is the no way to require a NICS check. CMP merely needs to instruct the receiving FFL to conduct a NICS check prior to transfer. There is nothing preventing a MA dealer from conducting a NICS check and 4473 on a transfer even if they have a C&R. It is happening in every other state with C&R holders buying CMP 1911s through 07 FFLs and still running the NICS check. CMP just won’t ship directly to 03 FFLs.
 
There is no red tape they're just being cucks about it.....

That's what the CMP is supposed to do. Its job is to restrict sale of surplus guns that could flood the market. The CMP is a protectionist organization designed to keep Garands and 1911s from being $99 and undercutting the gun industry. That's why the CMP has a ton of quirky rules and why there's a Byzantine amount of restrictions regarding importation of surplus US guns.
 
That's what the CMP is supposed to do. Its job is to restrict sale of surplus guns that could flood the market. The CMP is a protectionist organization designed to keep Garands and 1911s from being $99 and undercutting the gun industry. That's why the CMP has a ton of quirky rules and why there's a Byzantine amount of restrictions regarding importation of surplus US guns.
Lmao the shit they're selling though isn't newly made. The gun mafia does not care about CMP at all.
 
Lmao the shit they're selling though isn't newly made. The gun mafia does not care about CMP at all.

Remember that the CMP is by no means a new organization. I suggest reading Deadly Business, a biography on Sam Cummings, which provides a lot more detail.
 
Remember that the CMP is by no means a new organization. I suggest reading Deadly Business, a biography on Sam Cummings, which provides a lot more detail.
100 years ago sure, I'd buy the protectionist angle, but other than the ammo they sell, nothing adversely affects or influences the market now.
 
100 years ago sure, I'd buy the protectionist angle, but other than the ammo they sell, nothing adversely affects or influences the market now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying just dumping all the M1s and 1911s today would kill the modern gun industry.

My point is that what the intent of Congress was when they set the rules up for the CMP. Why does the CMP try to restrict resale? Why are there no direct shipments to 03s? Why are a tiny amount of 1911s released when there's literally millions of surplus 1911s in warehouses? Why can't surplus American guns be re-imported easily?

Its because the CMP's job is to maintain an artificially-high price.
 
I understand, but I appreciate the explanation and it is great for others too.

The point I’m trying to make is that it seems like the CMR does not apply to C&R guns when being sold to a C&R holder given the verbiage of the new law.

If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong though. Perhaps the new law really does just apply to the rosters. In which case the new law is even a crappier compromise than originally thought.
Unfortunately you are wrong. The new law was changes to MGL chap 140 only. It changed restrictions on dealers that existed in MGL 140. 940CMR16 is based on consumer safety law and it TOTALLY separate from MGL chap 140. It is regulations promulgated by the AG enabled by the consumer safety laws. The enabling law was not changed and the CMR was not changed so the CMR still applies. The only way the legislature could change the CMR would be to change the underlying law that enabled it or otherwise pass a law that specifically invalidated 940CMR16.

So no, you cannot get your CMP 1911 from a 01 or 07 even if CMP would ship it because the gun has not previously been sold commercially. Yes it sucks.

Is this subtlety something many MA Dealers will understand? Not a chance.
 
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