Civil War arms

This is not entirely correct. Some folks have loaded .30 caliber M2 AP bullets onto .300 Win Mag cartridges and easily defeated Level 4 plates and still achieved 16+ inch penetration in ballistic gelatin. I would agree that this option is probably not a good course for the OP, as he appears to be a novice. However, in the hands of someone with a .300 Win Mag and the ability to handload, Level 4 armor is toast.

I personally don't know anyone who owns a 300win mag. And this is my point. I'm sure there's a ton of rare cartridges and wildcats that can defeat armor, but they are all cost prohibitive for bulk ammo for someone just starting out and you've pigeon holed yourself into a platform no one else is using.
 
I personally don't know anyone who owns a 300win mag. And this is my point. I'm sure there's a ton of rare cartridges and wildcats that can defeat armor, but they are all cost prohibitive for bulk ammo for someone just starting out and you've pigeon holed yourself into a platform no one else is using.

.300 Win Mag rifles are readily available and not cost prohibitive. PPU ammo is listed on TS-USA at 85 cents per round. Two or three boxes of ammo will not break the bank. After that, all it takes is someone skilled in handloading, something that is well within the skill set of many people on this forum (not the OP obviously). The point I am making is that it is very easy to defeat Level 4 armor with .30 caliber ammunition without trying very hard.
 
.300 Win Mag rifles are readily available and not cost prohibitive. PPU ammo is listed on TS-USA at 85 cents per round. Two or three boxes of ammo will not break the bank. After that, all it takes is someone skilled in handloading, something that is well within the skill set of many people on this forum (not the OP obviously). The point I am making is that it is very easy to defeat Level 4 armor with .30 caliber ammunition without trying very hard.

I think you greatly underestimate the gap between the average firearm owner and reloading custom AP ammo. Lol. The OP should get a common mag fed gun like an AR15 or AR10, get some training and hunting rounds. Call it a day. If you've got a squad of dudes, then look at specializing gear for missions.
 
I have to take the level 4 criteria out. Just not practical at this point in time for my skill level. I'm thinking AR10 with lots of practice.
 
Two suggestions to fit your stated goals. Either...
  1. Get both an AR-15 and AK-47.
    • Why?
      • two excellent, proven platforms
      • covers likely the two biggest types to show at the boogaloo
      • versatility; now you have more calibers and weapon platforms potentially harvested from a field of battle that you can maintain and immediately use
      • familiarity with both will translate into broader general firearm knowledge
    • Why not?
      • heavily regulated in Mass = uncommon and expensive
      • double the platforms, double the parts, double the expense, more than double the learning curve because...
      • two manuals of arms may get confusing to the newcomer rather than developing muscle memory for one
      • more recent designs implement advantages of each, such as...
  2. Get an IWI Tavor X95 chambered in 5.56.
    • Why?
      • available in Mass
      • takes ubiquitous ammo and mags of the AR-15
      • uses AK's cleaner gas piston rather than AR's dirtier direct impingement (or as some put it "doesn't s*** where it eats")
      • compact bullpup design
      • rails for any accessory or optic you want
      • refined and battlefield proven by Israel for 25 years, originally as the Tavor SAR
      • conversion kits for 9mm and .300 BLK (more of a side note than selling point for your desired goals)
      • option to move up to .308 with the Tavor 7 using familiar manual of arms but with AR-10 platform mags and ammo
    • Why not?
      • all internals proprietary from one manufacturer and less ubiquitous (though currently not hard to find spare parts)
      • pricier initial investment, likely $1600-1900 in Mass
      • manual of arms is different enough from AR-15 or AK-47 that you would not intuitively know how to operate either without familiarizing yourself
      • less accurate than AR-15
I've invested heavily in the X95 for these reasons. Whatever you do, two is one and one is none.
 
This is not entirely correct. Some folks have loaded .30 caliber M2 AP bullets onto .300 Win Mag cartridges and easily defeated Level 4 plates and still achieved 16+ inch penetration in ballistic gelatin. I would agree that this option is probably not a good course for the OP, as he appears to be a novice. However, in the hands of someone with a .300 Win Mag and the ability to handload, Level 4 armor is toast.

That falls squarely under "some weird cartridge noone around you will have". [laugh]

-Mike
 
You can’t get an AR all that easily in MA but that’s the right answer.

A Mini 14 does everything an AR can do and you can get it in MA easily.

So a Mini 14 is a pretty decent alternative.
 
.22LR rifle, probably 10/22 --> bolt action centerfire rifle --> semi-auto centerfire rifle. This will allow you to progressively grow as a shooter. The world's best and most accurate rifle won't be of any help to you if you don't know the fundamentals. So, start basic, learn, and have fun.

yep. you really need to be able to hit what you are aiming at. that means when you are standing, prone, resting it on a nearby object (tree, car, etc). You will not be shooting while sitting down with sandbags to help!

Also, aim points, etc? I would down play any complicated shit. a simple non-battery operated variable power scope will do just fine, and you will not be whining when the battery on your whizbang new thingie sight does not turn on in a pinch.
 
Also, aim points, etc? I would down play any complicated shit. a simple non-battery operated variable power scope will do just fine, and you will not be whining when the battery on your whizbang new thingie sight does not turn on in a pinch.

Have you used a red dot before? The good ones are idiot proof and easier to use than a scope. I bought a Trijicon RMR this past March and all I needed to zero it was a flathead screwdriver, a target, and ammo. CR2032 batteries, the industry standard, have a practical use life of five years, but most people who use them on guns select an arbitrary date to swap out the battery every year. If someone can't swap out a battery once a year, that's failing basic gun maintenance 101. That's like not being able to clean a gun.

Now, granted, a LPVO would derive more utility, but if someone's trying to cheap out, a red dot would be easier to buy and use. But I'm not a fan of cheap optics no matter what the type.
 
Have you used a red dot before? The good ones are idiot proof and easier to use than a scope. I bought a Trijicon RMR this past March and all I needed to zero it was a flathead screwdriver, a target, and ammo. CR2032 batteries, the industry standard, have a practical use life of five years, but most people who use them on guns select an arbitrary date to swap out the battery every year. If someone can't swap out a battery once a year, that's failing basic gun maintenance 101. That's like not being able to clean a gun.

Now, granted, a LPVO would derive more utility, but if someone's trying to cheap out, a red dot would be easier to buy and use. But I'm not a fan of cheap optics no matter what the type.
yeah, i had an AR with a fancy holographic site. Put it in the safe and kind of forgot about it for a couple of months. Then one day I needed it in a hurry, turned the tiny knob to ON, and nuttin' happened. battery dead. Sight was off that rifle later that day, and never made it back....

we are talking about pandemic, end of the world shit. No stone shall stand upon another. Real wrath of God stuff. Fancy and high tech....not going to cut it anymore
 
yeah, i had an AR with a fancy holographic site. Put it in the safe and kind of forgot about it. Then one day I needed it in a hurry, turned the tiny knob to ON, and nuttin' happened. battery dead. Sight was off that rifle later that day, and never made it back....

Ok, so that's your fault then for not maintaining a gun that you knew you needed to be ready at a moment's notice. You failed to perform maintenance on a part on your gun. Don't blame a perishable battery that you know needs to be replaced for expiring. Batteries die - how do you not know that and how do you not know the battery life?

Maybe this was an older optic that had a shitty battery life, I don't know because Googling a "fancy holographic site" isn't going to yield many precise results. But changing a battery is an easy enough task that you failed to do. You also probably failed to read how long the battery's life was, which all manufacturers publish these days. The manuals come with instructions as to when and how to change the batteries. Reviews, videos, etc. also cut through any industry marketing bull.
 
I have to take the level 4 criteria out. Just not practical at this point in time for my skill level. I'm thinking AR10 with lots of practice.
Good call.

Id recommend bailing on a .308 and going with a 5.56. Its way cheaper to stock and i like the magazine situation a lot better. Putting together a solid rifle setup gets expensive pretty fast if you need your stuff now and buy reasonably good quality. Id suggest this:

1. Buy a stripped lower from a reasonably good brand, maybe $100 for the lower and another $100 to build it out. Think Aero, bcm, spikes, or others. Probably avoid anderson or a plastic lower. $200

2. Buy a pretty good upper. Any of the above brands are also pretty good and reasonably priced. $400-$600

3. Buy 10 standard capacity magazines. In a free state, maybe $100, in MA maybe $250.

4. Buy an optic - youll have to decide what you want out if the optic, but there are a fair number of good quality red dots in the $200-$400 range. Eotech/aimpoint if you really want to party, maybe vortex if your wallet is hurting by now.

5. You need something to shoot, so buy a case of brass fmj for the range. $300. Youll also need some decent ammo for when the world goes to shit, lets say 200 rounds. $100 maybe.

6. At some point youll need both hands to twist the top off the jack daniels so you need a sling. $20

7. If youve gotten this far and youre still interested youll need a way to carry your mags, a trauma kit ($50), cheetos, and natty ice into battle so a carrier vest will help a lot. $50 for base level gear will get it done.

8. Want your own armor? Lvl 4 can be had for $250. Avoid steel. Not worth it. Dont make the mistake i did.

9. Lastly. Start some cardio and do pushups. Free. Emphasis on this one.

For everything above its about $2100, less the cost of your favorite liquor and some cosmic brownies.
 
Ok, so that's your fault then for not maintaining a gun that you knew you needed to be ready at a moment's notice. You failed to perform maintenance on a part on your gun. Don't blame a perishable battery that you know needs to be replaced for expiring. Batteries die - how do you not know that and how do you not know the battery life?

Maybe this was an older optic that had a shitty battery life, I don't know because Googling a "fancy holographic site" isn't going to yield many precise results. But changing a battery is an easy enough task that you failed to do. You also probably failed to read how long the battery's life was, which all manufacturers publish these days. The manuals come with instructions as to when and how to change the batteries. Reviews, videos, etc. also cut through any industry marketing bull.
yeah, you are right....i should have changed out that battery on a schedule....done more maintenance.
but i am a busy guy, and have a LOT of other important stuff going on too. It is in my nature. Shooting and hunting is a hobby for me...it gets a lot more active when hunting season is starting, and a lot less active when it is not. I need guns that do not need a lot of maintenance....so no batteries for me!

i suspect the OP would be pretty cavalier about gun maintenance too....hence recommended something tried and true.

lets look at a true end of the world scenario...CVS/Walgreens is a faint memory...you have not seen a battery for sale in 4 years....mad max is driving down your street....stopping at houses and looting them....you look over at your rifle....it had better be a stout one! No foo foo crap
 
yeah, you are right....i should have changed out that battery on a schedule....done more maintenance.
but i am a busy guy, and have a LOT of other important stuff going on too. It is in my nature. Shooting and hunting is a hobby for me...it gets a lot more active when hunting season is starting, and a lot less active when it is not. I need guns that do not need a lot of maintenance....so no batteries for me!

i suspect the OP would be pretty cavalier about gun maintenance too....hence recommended something tried and true.

lets look at a true end of the world scenario...CVS/Walgreens is a faint memory...you have not seen a battery for sale in 4 years....mad max is driving down your street....stopping at houses and looting them....you look over at your rifle....it had better be a stout one! No foo foo crap
In that scenario, OP has said he expects to be in the ground already, so you can have his battery :)
Or maybe the Holosun with solar?
But really, run what makes you happy.
 
OP, don't underestimate the value of optics. Many who eventually upgrade their original purchase will advise you buy once/cry once. For a long gun consider something like a Trijicon MRO Patrol or an Eotech EXPS. I love RMRs on pistols but I prefer a bigger window on long guns. I have each if you want to inspect in person.

As Stockwell said, zero holds well on these nicer optics and batteries will last years, but $2 each every New Year's Day is easy confidence. I've never bothered with any of the solar ones; heard a lot of complaints that they're too dim, the possibility of which is unacceptable if my life depends on it.
 
Do you see African children using AR15? ... f*ck no.
Do you see African warlords using AR15? ... f*ck no.

The AK is the ultimate apocalypse, low maintenance gun.

download (1).jpeg

Dont forget the life vest.
+20 style
+3 bullet resistance
+30 bad a**
 
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OP - Go to a WalMart or any other store with a good magazine selection, and pick up something with "Buyer's Guide" in the title that has 1) a bunch of articles describing the modern sporting rifle and 2) probably thirty pages of comparison charts in the back. Buy it, and one or two other "gun" magazines, at least one with 'tactical' or 'survival' somewhere on the cover.

Take them to the john and don't come back until you know what you want.

I have two ARs:
Scoped 20" rifle with PRS stock and bipod. More of a bench rifle for "precision" work.

Red dot sight on 14"5" carbine (midlength gas system) w/ muzzle device bringing it over 16". I live in a free state so have a collapsible stock. Inexpensive red dot sight AND backup iron sights for when the batteries die. two point sling and a very bright weaponlight. This would be the "shtf" gun if I had to take it with me "into action." This, and handguns...

Both 1:8 twist so run the same ammo just as well as the other. Get an assortment of 10, 20, and 30 round mags. I actually like the 20's best.

I have a .308 AR with scope, and like it fine. Got the 80% lower as part of an NES group buy and built it up as a "SASS" rifle. Fun, but it's heavy to lug anywhere...

I also have a .308 bolt-action "Scout" rifle. Some say if you're only going to have one rifle, that's the way to go, and it's hard to argue. Powerful, portable, reliable, accurate-enough.

10/22, and a Remington 870 pump shotgun, and I'm ready for darn near anything short of needing to stop an APV.
 
Answer: AR-15 type rifle

A Tavor/X95 only makes sense if you need handling in tight quarters. For its price, you can get a pre-ban/pre-94 AR and set it up how you want. I’d probably just get the AR lower and then research what upper you want instead of buying a complete old rifle and overspending for that upper that’s already on there.

Step 2: Get a decent optic (preferably red dot given your skill level), sling, and weapon mounted light

Step 3: Sign up for an intro carbine course at the Sig Academy in NH or similar school. Then sign up for more as you progress.

A Mini-14 works if you’re on a budget, but I’d try to avoid it for your intentions.
 
Well @G Port it's been a week. What'd you buy? Or do we need to arrange a group range day?

Comrades, thank you for all the input.

Brewer, I haven't bought anything yet. I was going to build an ar10. However I know so little about quality parts I've decided to by a rifle outright. Probably an AR15.
I like the idea of both ar and ak (who wouldn't) but I'd rather have just one and become really proficient with it.
 
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