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Civil War arms

C. Stockwell said:
Dude, your posts clearly indicate no sense of reality.

First of all, where are Navy Seals coming from? Second, how do you know how proficient the typical criminal is with a gun? In my observations, they're borderline incompetent and dangers to themselves. Most don't even know what kind of ammo to put in a gun AND ITS WRITTEN ON THE DAMNED GUN. You're talking about "government agents" that do "tours of duty in some foreign" place. Guess what? Feds stay here, unless they have a DD214.

You want to get an AR-10 or a Barrett .50BMG as a first rifle? That's a lack of reality.
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Started to get a feeling he was trolling but I think he just hasnt thought this through. Getting a bit of a /K/ vibe
 
I use Navy SEAL simply as a metaphor for someone with solid military experience. You are right about the average strong arm criminal. However I am talking about an organized gang that will fill a community when the police are called upon to cordon off a city sized area. Am I lacking a sense of reality by thinking a gang like MS13 had no access to armor or weapons? Is it unrealistic to think that many former veterans, combat or not, gravitate to federal and law enforcement positions. Is it wholly unrealistic to think that some gangs have prior service members who actually know how to use a weapon?
 
G Port said:
So it's looking more and more likely I am going to see some sort of collapse during my lifetime. Things just seem to get worse every month. Our useless governments at all levels have no problem grinding down on your average Joe or Jane, but when faced with rioters in cities or invaders across out borders, they take no action. Those turds let criminals out of jail so the won't get a cold but if you dare open your legitimate business before their blessing, say good bye to whatever stupid license you need to be in business. They can't manage to keep the streets paved but spent over $50 billion in foreign aid (2017).

I've decided to move from handguns to a rifle for the big party. I plan on owning just one. I have no experience with rifles. I would like the input from you NES rifle owners to buy the right one. I'm not really concerned with "battlefield" procurement of ammunition. With no prior military experience, I'm not likely to see the end of any hard times. I'll just stockpile one caliber to run the clock out with. I have the following criteria:

1. must be reliable with a minimum of cleaning and lubrication
2. disable an opponent wearing level 4 armor
3. most stopping power I can get while maintaining reasonable control
4. purchasable over the counter from a Massachusetts FFL
4. conversion to select fire without specialized gunsmith tools for when such laws cease to be relevant
5. what accessories are really practical/necessary for a civil war piece? bipod, scope, etc
6. if a type of rifle is made by multiple manufacturers, what are the names of the manufacturers that produce the better rifles.

Your thoughts, comrades.
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Go to NH and purchase a stainless Mini 14 ranch rifle, several dozen Ruger factory 10 round magazines and 800 rounds of M193 ball along with 800 rounds of M855 green tip enhanced penetration. Totally MA legal and will more than do the job for anti-personnel work, assuming this will be your only rifle.
 
G Port said:
I use Navy SEAL simply as a metaphor for someone with solid military experience. You are right about the average strong arm criminal. However I am talking about an organized gang that will fill a community when the police are called upon to cordon off a city sized area. Am I lacking a sense of reality by thinking a gang like MS13 had no access to armor or weapons? Is it unrealistic to think that many former veterans, combat or not, gravitate to federal and law enforcement positions. Is it wholly unrealistic to think that some gangs have prior service members who actually know how to use a weapon?
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Based on what I've read and been briefed about, your views of MS13's objectives are way, way out of what anyone's ever seen from them before.

They're not interested in becoming an army. They're not interested in "taking over society." Unless you're in a rival gang or in some way looking to horn in on their territory, they're unlikely to pay any attention to you at all. They don't need to "fill a community;" they already do. Their existing business model works just fine for them, actually.

And no. They're not veterans. Most MS13ers age out in their mid-twenties, start a family, and get on with life. They get into the gang long, long before they're old enough to join the army.

Thomas Ward, Gangsters Without Borders. It's an ethnography. Read it if you want to learn about MS13, other than what the fearmongering media tells you.
 
remember when those California (I think) cops had to shoot it out with those AK carrying bank robbers. They had armor on and they seemed to know what they were doing.
 
fair enough Picton. Maybe I overestimate groups like that. But you do mention the gangs concept of territory. If law enforcement will no longer tread into an area a group of some sort, probably not Shriners, will arise to control the territory. Maybe they're even worse shots that me. Maybe they couldn't even organize a two car funeral. But with sufficient numbers, even if they only have AMT .380's they could make life miserable for a lot of people couldn't they? In fairness too, I don't know a lot about gangs. MS13 is the name I pick up from the headlines. In the briefings you mention, have you ever run across a gang or organization that caused your ears to perk up?

yeah, that might be a good read. It's at amazon too
 
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LuvDog said:
If you really want one rifle for the end of civilized society then get an AR15. Tons of parts and mags.
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In general I have to agree. I have been stocking up on parts these days. Everything from pins and springs to a few barrels. Right now parts are very easy to get. Who knows how long that will last? The AR15 is very easy for any mechanically inclined person to work on with just a few specialized inexpensive tools. Keep em well lubricated they continue to run. Having said that, I will always hang onto my bolt action 22 and my 10/22. AR 15 for boogie men, 22 to eat small game but if I could only have ONE it would be the AR for sure.
 
G Port said:
fair enough Picton. Maybe I overestimate groups like that. But you do mention the gangs concept of territory. If law enforcement will no longer tread into an area a group of some sort, probably not Shriners, will arise to control the territory. Maybe they're even worse shots that me. Maybe they couldn't even organize a two car funeral. But with sufficient numbers, even if they only have AMT .380's they could make life miserable for a lot of people couldn't they? In fairness too, I don't know a lot about gangs. MS13 is the name I pick up from the headlines. In the briefings you mention, have you ever run across a gang or organization that caused your ears to perk up?

yeah, that might be a good read. It's at amazon too
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You're missing the point. MS13 is not at war with the cops. They're at war with other gangs. There's no "vaccuum" that will arise when the cops "no longer tread into an area;" the cops are there, in and out, on patrol. MS13 is there the rest of the time. Just about all the violence gangs commit is against other bangers, and TPTB are fine with that. They all know what will happen if gangs start attacking you and me.

When outsiders get into trouble from gangs, it's always because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, make the wrong friends or try to deal drugs in an area already controlled by gangs.

G Port said:
isn't a shotgun more of an up close weapon that kicks like a mule?
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Generally, but not always. And no, the kick is not at all bad from a 12-ga.

ETA: To be fair, I haven't handled lightweight weirdo-shotties without buttstocks and with flashlights and shit on them. I'm old-school, and a Remington 870 or (better IMO) a Winchester 97 doesn't kick unmanageably at all.
 
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picton, I can see your point that gangs of criminals are inclined to confine their activities to smaller areas and within the criminal community as long as a credible law enforcement threat is present. But what happens when the real threat of law enforcement is removed. I'll use Mexico as an example here. From what I've read, the cartels are large enough, organized, and well enough armed to take on the Mexican army in certain regions. What is a cartel but a successful gang? I feel our government is only about 10 years away from being as corrupt as the Mexican government, if they're not there already. As it is now we seem to have a revolving door criminal justice system. It does not seem the police are of much concern to the organized anarchists rioting in our cities and in Europe over "American racism" The state governments boldly call out the national guard, only to have them stand behind barricades like dummies. Maybe of the guardsman will let me buy his AR15 since he's not using it for anything.

I have read that there are places in England and France that have experienced such demographic change as a result of immigration that now there are "No Go" zones that are basically sharia controlled. Is it not possible that as our nation changes demographically, the people from these violent, corrupt nations will pay off the appropriate local, state, and federal officials to increase their power? to grow their empire?

Just because the Lawrence PD puts in more face time with the citizens now then the Bobbys do in Upper-Bumshire today, that may not always last. And when that scale tips......
 
Well, YMMV. But I deployed into the aftermath of a real civil war with all the trimmings, and we're a damn sight from that.

Even if we do have a civil war, it won't be as vicious as that one. So maybe I'm a little blase because I feel I've seen worse.
 
No, you've seen the real thing and it is good to know that you don't think it will come to that. But it seems we are headed down the wrong path as a nation. It also seems that many of the initiatives to get us back an a sane path are thwarted by non other than our various levels of government. Look at all the f###ing trillion dollar spending bills they pass. Pork, bureaucracy, power.

And even though you have seen the real thing, I suspect you are underestimating the viciousness of a balkanized Amerika.

I suppose all we can do is prepare a lot, hope a little, and vote. Which brings me back to the original post.
 
G Port said:
can a civilian in Assachusetts even get AP rounds? Who makes a good AR10?
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Legal M2 AP ammunition is available, if you know what the rules are and know where to look. M2 AP is valuable against anything, except for Level 4 armor. More importantly, M2 AP proved it's worth to the GI's of WW2 and Korea for penetrating various barriers. There is a US Army training video floating around on Youtube that explained this use of M2 AP. I'll try to find the link tomorrow.
 
G Port said:
isn't a shotgun more of an up close weapon that kicks like a mule?
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Are you trying to hold off a horde at 600 yards?

If you're shooting "for real" you'll not notice the recoil.

If you're shooting at multiple adversaries, with bad-ass armor, you better go with Napoleon: God is on the side of the bigger battalions.

Or, go Neo

View: https://gfycat.com/milkybetterargusfish
 
Ideally, anything belt fed.
Realistically...................
M1a maybe?

Any 12 gauge pump?
Probably completely useless for anything past a certain distance, but has that certain psychological factor when people see that big barrel and hear it click-clack.
Throw a bayonet on there like the old (but probably still used) trench guns and it'll cause someone to really question all the bad decisions they've made that led them to this exact point in time.

Side note and probably completely unrelated-
In basic training, it was drilled in "marksmanship, group size, pinpoint accuracy blah blah blah"
When I got to the unit, it was " A hits a hit, concentrated suppressive fire, when in doubt empty it out"
 
TrashcanDan said:
Any 12 gauge pump?
Probably completely useless for anything past a certain distance, but has that certain psychological factor when people see that big barrel and hear it click-clack.
Throw a bayonet on there like the old (but probably still used) trench guns and it'll cause someone to really question all the bad decisions they've made that led them to this exact point in time.
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A pump 12-gauge with slugs can make hits out to 100 yards. In a defensive situation necessitating a long gun in New England, that'll do fine. Either in urban or rural environments.
 
HorizontalHunter said:
You don’t even have to hit a near miss is just as good.

Bob
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This guy is stupid. That’s not how bullets work. If that were the case there would be dead people all over battlefields from near misses.
There are plenty of videos of guys sending bullets right past things with no harm done.

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Read some of these.
 
Like everyone else said if your worried about body armor aim for their legs or head.
Get an AR type rifle and learn how to be proficient with it.
Get some kind of chest rig for mag storage on the move and again train with it.

Then after all that you will have to figure out if you have the will to use it and under what circumstances.
 
the AR seems to be the leading recommendation. I thought I'd hear more from the AK guys. So in the AR world, what are some names to stay away from?
 
Defeating lvl4 is a no go for anything but 50bmg or some wierd cartridge no one else around you will have. The best way to stop someone with heavy kit on is shoot them in the head or pelvis.

If you want stopping power, build an AR10 and a belt and plate carrier around it with 20rd mags.

If you want something easier to find ammo for buy a nice AR15.

If you want max penetration thru barriers use standard military balls ammo. If you want to put someone down in one shot, load your mags with hunting rounds like TTSX.
 
xtry51 said:
Defeating lvl4 is a no go for anything but 50bmg or some wierd cartridge no one else around you will have. The best way to stop someone with heavy kit on is shoot them in the head or pelvis.

If you want stopping power, build an AR10 and a belt and plate carrier around it with 20rd mags.

If you want something easier to find ammo for buy a nice AR15.

If you want max penetration thru barriers use standard military balls ammo. If you want to put someone down in one shot, load your mags with hunting rounds like TTSX.
Click to expand...


This is not entirely correct. Some folks have loaded .30 caliber M2 AP bullets onto .300 Win Mag cartridges and easily defeated Level 4 plates and still achieved 16+ inch penetration in ballistic gelatin. I would agree that this option is probably not a good course for the OP, as he appears to be a novice. However, in the hands of someone with a .300 Win Mag and the ability to handload, Level 4 armor is toast.
 

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