church/religion and shooting

[fencer]

I think drawing attention to your position may have unintended consequences

 

[Picton]

I was asking a question about how to counter the discussions on twitter from the church leadership, who are supporting gun control, which I do not agree with.

I wasn't referring to you, OP, but to the monks who've derailed your thread.

The only possible answer for you, though, is that you must do as your conscience demands. What else can a man do, in questions of faith? So must your fellow churchgoers.

 

[Coyote33]

... being Catholic ... Catholic heirarchy ... I'm not Catholic. ... I believe that the Catholic Church ... I believe that the Catholic... The Catholic Church ...are you Catholic or are you not Catholic? Let's have an answer!

Sure, just have this conversation somewhere else please.



FINALLY! Some good answers:

I think drawing attention to your position may have unintended consequences

True enough. Maybe I'll just wait for my kids to get confirmed, then slowly back away.

...The only possible answer for you, though, is that you must do as your conscience demands. What else can a man do, in questions of faith? So must your fellow churchgoers.

Good advice. I guess that "Vox Populi, Vox Dei" comes in to play here.

 

[308rifleman]

Anti gun orgs always seem to make exceptions for special people. Amazon and Facebook almost certainly ban guns on company property, but good luck getting near one of their CEOs at work without being very near a gun toting bodyguard. And then there is this Swiss Guard thing with the Pope.

It goes back to the Middle Ages. Crusaders. Knights Templars. A quote in the Bible attributed to Jesus Christ Himself who suggested that anyone who does not possess a sword should purchase one. No firearms, but in those days, the sword was the queen of personal weapons.

 

[teaser452]

If being Catholic means that like you.....I have to believe I'm better than any other Christian faith simply because i fully 100 percent blindly accept everything that the out of touch Catholic heirarchy spew from their mouths.....yeah....I guess I'm not Catholic. Look around at masses lately? Average age is about 60. Wonder why?!?!

But.....I'm proud to admit I have a brain.

On another topic related to Christian faith......I separate the church.....and the government. I believe that the Catholic Church has the right to refuse marriage to same sex couple's......as it doesn't fit the teaching of our faith. However.....I believe that the Catholic and other Christian churches have absolutely no right to expect the government to legislate to fit the church's beliefs of morality. A same sex marriage In the eyes of the government In no way effects the sanctity of a Christian marriage. If you think it does......you do not understand what individual freedom means.

The Catholic Church does believe in gun control....that's a fact. So....are you Catholic or are you not Catholic? Let's have an answer!

I am a Catholic and the Catholic Church does not believe in gun control. Don’t listen to off the cuff remarks from the pope or the cardinals or the bishops or the priests. The Catholic Church stands firmly on the side of God given rights. One of those is the right to defend yourself.

 

[whacko]

I am a Catholic and the Catholic Church does not believe in gun control. Don’t listen to off the cuff remarks from the pope or the cardinals or the bishops or the priests. The Catholic Church stands firmly on the side of God given rights. One of those is the right to defend yourself.

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

You stated I'm not Catholic because I take some and not other "beliefs" of the Catholic Church.

Yet.....the pope.....who in order to be a "true" Catholic you must believe is infallible in teachings of faith......states that gun control is necessary......and you just told me to ignore him.

That's strange.

 

[teaser452]

I am just biding my time until my parish priest says something about gun control.

I will then ask him if he knows about some small organization called the Swiss Guards. I will next ask him what they do and who they protect and what are some of the tools which they use and if they would use these tools to visit deadly force upon someone who tries to attack their protectee.

We will see how it goes after that.

That’s funny. After my parish priest said so I thing during the homily after the CT shooting, my wife leaned over and asked if I was carrying. I smiled and nodded. I never bothered talking to the priest. It would do no good. You just have to remember that the quality and quantity of priests has fallen dramatically since V2. Pray for more and better priests.

Also, someone on here said something about following you conscience. Which is true. That is all you can do. But you must be sure to have an informed conscience. In other words, if you are pro abortion because that’s what your conscience tells you, then you have failed to inform your conscience.

 

[teaser452]

Let me see if I understand this correctly:

You stated I'm not Catholic because I take some and not other "beliefs" of the Catholic Church.

Yet.....the pope.....who in order to be a "true" Catholic you must believe is infallible in teachings of faith......states that gun control is necessary......and you just told me to ignore him.

That's strange.

I didn’t say you aren’t a Catholic. But you have admitted that you are a lapsed Catholic. I didn’t bring it up, you just did.

The pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. This pope has never done that. The last time a pope spoke ex cathedra was in the 60s.

Just another anti catholic trope brought out. It’s false, it’s not true and a lie. If you ever were a Catholic, your formation was bad. Very bad. And that’s in your teachers.

Either way, now this is straying way off topic. The Catholic Church is pro gun, and pro wall and pro just war. Always has been. Always will be.

 

[enbloc]

Vox populi, vox Dei.

Vox Populi < Vox Dei

* "The voice of the People is Always less than the Voice of God"

 

[Matt-CZ]

Religious opinions in this country are a dime a dozen. There is no enforced orthodoxy, and individuals within a church will have opinions differing from the official stance.

For any given issue, you can likely find religious opinions on either side, directly contradicting one another. If a church's teaching is far out of step with your own conscience, it's pretty easy to just find another one more in line with your own personal morals. In that context, an "official" position is pretty worthless unless it is something large number of that church's following actually believes and cares about.

 

[drgrant]

 

[kevin9]

30 seconds with Google have turned up the following articles:
This one is a brief counter-argument: A Biblical Argument for Self-Defense
This one too is brief: Should Christians Defend Themselves?
Here's a list of scriptures related to self-defense: What Does the Bible Say About Self Defense?
This one is much more in-depth, with both OT and NT references: Biblical Self-Defense: What does the Bible say about self-defense? Bible study about self-defense questions: Can a Christian own a gun? What do the Scriptures say about using lethal force for self-protection?
And here's a book that provides a Christian support for Natural Law. I presume it might support Christian self-defense given the natural law basis often asserted for self defense: NATURAL LAW: A Brief Introduction and Biblical Defense

 

[fshalor]

30 seconds with Google have turned up the following articles:
This one is a brief counter-argument: A Biblical Argument for Self-Defense
This one too is brief: Should Christians Defend Themselves?
Here's a list of scriptures related to self-defense: What Does the Bible Say About Self Defense?
This one is much more in-depth, with both OT and NT references: Biblical Self-Defense: What does the Bible say about self-defense? Bible study about self-defense questions: Can a Christian own a gun? What do the Scriptures say about using lethal force for self-protection?
And here's a book that provides a Christian support for Natural Law. I presume it might support Christian self-defense given the natural law basis often asserted for self defense: NATURAL LAW: A Brief Introduction and Biblical Defense

A few of those may have been quoted loosely by... Thomas Paine. Who I believe is on point with the afore mentioned Thomas A. In things relating to human condition. Which is the topic here.

 

[Picton]

Also, someone on here said something about following you conscience. Which is true. That is all you can do. But you must be sure to have an informed conscience. In other words, if you are pro abortion because that’s what your conscience tells you, then you have failed to inform your conscience.

Yup. You went there.

I’m the guy who said that about consciences, and now you’ve twisted it to fit your judgemental belief system. I was trying to be polite and respectful toward everyone’s beliefs, but no. Take your sanctimony and your false piety and do what you want with it, but judge not lest you be judged. And don’t you dare put any more words in my mouth either. Come up with your own next time.

 

[HerbWest]

This is a real shame because I am a lutheran and I feel personally attacked by this.

I find this offensive

Sorry, only politically favored religions get to play that card.

 

[teaser452]

Yup. You went there.

I’m the guy who said that about consciences, and now you’ve twisted it to fit your judgemental belief system. I was trying to be polite and respectful toward everyone’s beliefs, but no. Take your sanctimony and your false piety and do what you want with it, but judge not lest you be judged. And don’t you dare put any more words in my mouth either. Come up with your own next time.

You totally missed the point about being informed. But that’s ok. Good luck brother!

 

[Win]

Most Christians these days are Biblically illiterate and most churches are more like clubs. It's those "Christians" (and Jews for that matter) that are for more gun control. The Jews and Christians who read the Bible and pray each day are pro 2A.

 

[CLW42]

I'm taking my pastor and a couple of other guys to the range this week so...

I've also committed to taking several other folks from my church. One guy lives in NH and wants to buy a gun but wants to be trained first. I was actually thinking of putting it out there for anyone at our church that's interested.

 

[Brewer]

OK, enough Catholic talk.


What are some points I can use against a non-Catholic pastor or other clergy person?

Aside from the bogus statistics and studies they use, how can I counter their other points and language?

How do they explain Jesus telling his disciples to get a sword even if it required selling a cloak for it (Luke 22:36)? A cloak was exceptionally critical gear in that day. The Old Testament law required any cloak held as security in an agreement to be returned by nightfall because you slept in it. Yet a sword is apparently more critical by Jesus’s comment.

Some say it’s a figurative way of saying “be on your guard” and not consistent with the “turn the other cheek” type teachings. Yet in addition to specific recommendations of how to prioritize acquire one, Peter used a sword to cut off an assailant’s ear while Jesus was being arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, meaning Jesus permitted his apostles/disciples to carry swords.

I think that is part of the problem. People tend to want to only focus on Jesus and the New Testament, return evil to no one, love your neighbor etc.
One passage states that "as far as it depends on you, live in peace with each other". The first line lays out the exception. It's saying don't be a trouble maker. It's not saying be a doormat. Even though a lot of the OT things don't apply even Jesus quoted from it. As you said the OT is clear about self defense and the bible also mentions God is the same and doesn't change his standards. So it's reasonable to conclude Jesus did not mean you can't defend yourself. A lot of people don't want to think. It's easier to accept whatever answer they are given.

Bingo. A shepherd protects his flock.

 

[Coyote33]

I am a Catholic and the Catholic Church...

...You stated I'm not Catholic ...

That’s funny. After my parish priest said ...

I didn’t say you aren’t a Catholic...

30 seconds with Google have turned up the following articles:
This one is a brief counter-argument: A Biblical Argument for Self-Defense
This one too is brief: Should Christians Defend Themselves?
Here's a list of scriptures related to self-defense: What Does the Bible Say About Self Defense?
This one is much more in-depth, with both OT and NT references: Biblical Self-Defense: What does the Bible say about self-defense? Bible study about self-defense questions: Can a Christian own a gun? What do the Scriptures say about using lethal force for self-protection?
And here's a book that provides a Christian support for Natural Law. I presume it might support Christian self-defense given the natural law basis often asserted for self defense: NATURAL LAW: A Brief Introduction and Biblical Defense

MANY thanks! I would not even have known what to search for. I'll read up.